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um this is an interview with mrs Lizette Mitchell for the Samford University oil history program by Sharon Llewellyn um at her residence on november the 18th 1985. Just get it over. Um I'm gonna ask you a few questions about your background. Where were you born? I

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was born in Holland. I'm a naturalized citizen due in part to Major Davis who was president of Howard College when I started teaching there and I had I was not a citizen, I was a damn yankee, I was a female woman and I was not a

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baptist. There were four strikes against me right there and he, the ministerial association used to come frequently and complain about things I had said in class. So when the chance came to have me naturalized he was right there with me to be sure that this worked

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out. So I was born in Holland, spent much of my life until 1943, spent all my life in the or most of it after we came over in the northeast. I'm a graduate of Syracuse University with both an A. B. And and what what role did

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major Davis have, Did he help you attain your citizenship? No, my father took out his first papers and if and died before he had it before the time lapse so that he could could become a citizen and I would have automatically become a citizen if he

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had, well he died so I could use his first papers And I applied for citizenship when I could, which was when I was 21 we were at war then World War II and I had to go through the Alien Registration Act. And so naturalization was delayed.

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It was not until after I married Bill Van Gelder in 1943 and moved to Birmingham that I got a notice from the Naturalization Immigration Bureau in Syracuse which my mother forwarded to me saying that I was to appear at such and such a time. Well I

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was here and there was no time to get there. So I wrote them and they said your papers will be transferred to Atlanta and you will hear from them. So a woman came over from Atlanta from the Immigration and Naturalization Bureau and asked me, she said

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I need to ask you some questions. I said, fine, can you read and write? Well, that struck me as I do think people ought to be able to look at people and have some sense of education and intelligence. But I thought, well she has so many.

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She asked me some other very simple questions, asked me who the first President of the United States was who the second President was Asked me about the amendments to the constitution, the 18th and the 20th and 21st and then she asked me who was president of

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the Confederacy. Well, I thought that was a peculiar question, but having just been to Montgomery recently and gotten some history, I knew that she wanted to know what the capital of the confederacy was, which I also happen to know because of this trip. Then she wanted

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to know where jefferson Davis was buried. And I did not know the answer to that. Then she asked me another question about the confederacy. Well, by this time, Sharon I had had it. So I rose from my seat and I said, I'm not interested in becoming

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a citizen of the confederacy, which as far as I'm concerned is long gone and dead. I'm interested in becoming a citizen of the United States. And when we're ready for that, let me know. And I stopped out of there. Well, of course, the major having had

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numerous complaints about various things. I said in Class C we had All ministerial students and the Navy V five and V 12. So we had a large group of older men who had not gotten very far in school, third grade, fourth grade, seventh grade. And that

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was high. They were special students. Well, weren't they special also in a sense that these were men who had gone out into the world. I mean, you would talk about a place and they say yes, I've been there and yes, I've seen that, weren't they also

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special in that these were from small towns in Alabama, rarely from anywhere else. Um I'm talking about the ministerial students, not the name, that's a different party, but these were older men. These ministerial students who had not had much education. They were special students. Some of

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them were for f and so could not go into the service and others were exempt from service because of their ministerial status. They were special students at Howard College. They were the ones who, when they were five, had had the call by God to go preach

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his gospel. They were most of them very conservative, very, very fundamentalist baptist. And when you're dealing with that, especially for a person like me who was brought up in the east, who had no notion of what fundamental Baptists were all about. Naturally drinking was a sin

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card plane was a sin. And they told one of them told me in class one day that dancing was a sexual love feast. So of course me, I said, oh, I danced my way through high school and college, but I didn't know that I'd better go

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back and start over again. Well, you see, this was the kind of comment that they marched right up to the majors office to tell him I had said so. I had those people to contend with my standards were high. They were not used to anyone telling

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them that they had to have their work in on time. If they had had to go off and preach a funeral service, they would come and they would say I had to go preach a funeral service. And so my paper is going to be late and

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I would say, I'm sorry God has not spoken to me about this. Your paper was due yesterday by 11:00 you will be penalized a letter grade a day just like everybody else. Did you have any special problems? Because you're female? I really don't think so. Um

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I really don't think so. But the fact that I was a damn yankee and not a baptist and when they found out I was in a furnace gracious. So the major was very anxious to be to do something about what he thought he could do something

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about. And when he learned dr George Faust was director of freshman english at that time and he was the one responsible for my coming to howard. And when dr Faust learned of my of this episode with a woman from Atlanta, he thought it was hilariously funny.

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And he told the major, well the major didn't think it was all that funny. So the major called me and then he said now mrs van gelder the next time they call you, let me know. And I said Major they're not likely to call me ever

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again. Well I did get a card to say come. So I went and told him about it. He said let me take you see he had been attorney general in the state of Alabama and he knew everybody down the courthouse. So I said he could take

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me, I'd be happy to. Well he wanted, he wanted to do everything and get me in and out. And he took a look at where I was supposed to sit. Now we have a large uh immigrant population, especially in the west end. And he didn't think

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he liked the looks of these people and he didn't think I ought to sit with them. And I said, I made you, we're all alike. I'm no better than they are. They're no worse than I and I shall sit where I'm supposed to sit. So I

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did. And he sat in the back of the courtroom patiently waiting. And when that was all over and we had sworn that the judge and pledge allegiance to the United States and done all these other. Then he came to me and said, now would you mind

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if I got your papers together and we got him signed so we could go. And since I was Van gelder that was V and there were all these people I said I'd be and some of them didn't write very well. I said I'd be glad to.

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So uh, that's how I got naturalized. And he always, he loved that story. Sharon. He just, whenever we were together he would tell it, that was one of the big coups in his life. I I do believe to get this recalcitrant damn yankee naturalized. Now the

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other segment of the student population was the Navy V five and V 12. These were young men getting ready to go to officer's training school bread. Just bread. I never taught such students. They were a joy. They were really a joy were they well prepared for

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their lessons. They always were well prepared. They were well disciplined. What age group are we talking about here? We're talking about young people, college age, they were just ready to get service. It wasn't until after the war was over 1946. And I think this is what

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you were thinking about when you made the comment about they had been all over. It wasn't until then that we had the veterans coming back to school under the G. I. Bill. That's that's what, that's, that's where you got confused and these were older men. But

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for the most part they had had a year or two in college or many of them had had a year to in college. Many of them had not done well because they weren't motivated, they didn't know what they wanted to do or why. And so they

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went into the service, that stint in the military taught any number of them the value of a college education. They did see the world or many of them saw the world, they met all kinds of different people. They came in contact with the professional group, came

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in contact with this wide range of people who did a wide range of things and they learned what it was they wanted to do. They came to college, they were highly motivated. They had found out what, that's right and they, for the most part I had

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some excellent students just blended who were highly motivated, who were interested and interesting and after the war, when when the G I. Bill went into effect, the veterans started coming back. Then we got a much better group of ministerial students. They were for the most part

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c we we these older men sort of dropped by the wayside and we got the young man fresh out of high school who came to college, they were ministerial students. They wanted to become ministers or so they thought and some of them did and some of

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them didn't and some of them are highly successful ministers and some of them after maybe two or three years decided this was not what they wanted to do and went into something else. Or some of them were graduated as ministerial students and went to graduate school

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and decided that this was not what they wanted to do. Okay. Um What first brought you to Howard? What did you pick it out of a list of schools? I have not ever taught in any institution where I wasn't invited to. I had been married and

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my husband and I had been married in 43 and we moved to Birmingham, as I said because he was with, he was an essential industry with dupont and he was in the children's Berg plant making TNT and DNT. And bill was desperately anxious to go into

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the Navy, but he was essential industry and so they wouldn't release him. So we moved to Birmingham and he had rented a house over in the crestline Heights, the people who were in the house had bought a house, they were waiting for the people they had

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bought the house from to move out And we were waiting for the faust's to move out. This was back in the war when we had the 90 day clause so that people would could not suddenly be evicted because somebody bought the house and we want you

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out now. So so we had to wait 90 days. Well the people who lived in the house that bill had branded were named Faust and we went over there one day too, so I could measure windows to get started on curtains and landing, I wanted to

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see the interior. Well Mr Faust was out mowing the lawn and mrs found was as charming as she could be. And we talked and priests and he came in and we chatted as we were leaving, I saw a pamphlet on the table next to the door

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and I said, oh Helene Hartley, that's like a breath of spring from home and he said, do you know her work and I said, I not only know her work, but I know her, she has taught me everything, I know about the teaching of english and

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he said, oh and so we talked about Helene Hartley who was a very well known scholar in english education at Syracuse, she had a doctorate in english and a doctorate in speech. She was one magnificent teacher. So that was the end of that. We moved into

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the house and our New Year's Eve, can I check my tape, yep, Okay. On New Year's Eve, it was pouring down rain came a ring at the doorbell, bring up the door that was fast eyebrow over his head. I wondered you know what in the world?

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Came in, took off and sat down and said I want you to come to Howard College and teach english. And I said mr Faust I was trained for high school, not college, he said, but you were trained at Syracuse under Helene Hartley, nothing to worry about,

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you'll be fine, you'll be better than anything they've ever had over there. Well I said, and what is Howard College, which I had never heard of. So he tried to explain, well I said I have retired, I taught for three years in new york state, had

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a ball, but now I've got to learn to peel potatoes and boil water. He said you're gonna get bored with that in no time. So he said I want you to come and see the Dean and the President. Well, more to get rid of him Sharon

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than any other reason. I said, okay, so on january the 2nd 1944 hmm fetched me in the morning. And we went over there. I met the dean and talked to him and met Major Davis and talked to him and I allowed this how I really didn't

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want to do this. And the major looked at me and he said we are at war and we need you, you are competent, you are talented, you are well educated in the Fine Eastern school, we need you. So I said, alright, just to finish up, they

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were starting this was january the second and they were on the I'm not sure. I think they were on the quarter system by then, but I'm not sure it doesn't matter. But anyway, I said I would stay only until they could find a replacement. And I

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stayed for almost 20 years. Um, I wanna talk a little bit about campus life now. Um, what were your feelings the first day? I mean, did you feel confident? I mean that you with the students? With some of the fellow, your fellow colleagues? Oh, I was

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always comfortable with them. They were a very, very nice group. And it was a small faculty. So we were we were sort of like a family. No. And I think there were only what 758 100 students. So it was a small campus. And and we were

00:21:10.230 - 00:21:29.180

we were a family interrupt you. What was the ratio of boys to girls? I haven't the foggiest notion. But my feeling is since we had the ministerial students and we had the navy V five and V 12 that probably there were more men than women, but

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I don't know what the ratio is. Well that's, that's what I wanted to know your general impression. Good. Many more men than women. Did women take an active role in campus life during this time? I would say. So there were the sororities and they were always

00:21:53.660 - 00:22:14.510

having teas and receptions of one kind or another. There were the fraternities, there was the Navy and they were always doing something. So there was an active campus life. Well I noticed in some of my research that they had dances to raise money for the war

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effort and, and they placed a lot of emphasis on their, their beauty queens, you know, um much more than we do now. We have 11 thing at homecoming and we left our homecoming queen, but they had, they had a lot of beauty pageants and I noticed

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when people got married that they would publish that in the bull pup. And that was a big thing, especially if a sorority sister married a fraternity brother and things like that. That's right now, there was no dancing on campus, right? Remember dancing. So they had their

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dances at the Pickwick club, which was in, in the, On the south side five points and they had what was called a lead out, the sororities did. And that was when the beauty queen of the Sorority was presented that lead out by that was important, very

00:23:16.170 - 00:23:43.390

formal and all of that, the social life at that time was things were much more formal than they are now. You know, you went to tease with hats and gloves and you well, pants for women were unheard of, I can't remember when they came in, but

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it was years later. Um did they have any women in ministry or were they just not so far as I know, they were just the woman behind the man, the women were expected to marry and we're expected, well, I suppose those with that kind of interest,

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we're looking for a ministerial student to marry because that was the kind of life that they thought they would enjoy now by no means Sharon, were they all like that? There were those who were going into teaching and we're going to take their chances after they

00:24:29.190 - 00:24:57.170

got out, they didn't find anybody in. Um, but things were, things were much more formal and there was, there was a great deal going on. There was a very active and very good, by the way, Theater Tony Sparks was the drama department at that time. And

00:24:57.170 - 00:25:19.180

then when she left, john Newfield came and he was top notch and he was the one that decided he would do the Madwoman of shy. Oh, and said to me one day, was that I'm going to cast faculty members and in the title in the main

00:25:19.180 - 00:25:40.050

Rose, you know, before a man women and I want you to play Constance and the Mad woman was at that time running on broadway or had just finished running on broadway and I had seen it and it was just stupendous. And I said, john, you can't

00:25:40.050 - 00:26:02.280

possibly do that at Howard College first place, there isn't that kind of talent here, good as you are. And in the second place, I said, I don't know which us, I don't know where you get the idea that there's anybody on the faculty who can handle

00:26:02.280 - 00:26:30.610

these roles, certainly not me well, he didn't pay attention to that and we ended up with MS Forman playing josephine, she was in psychology and much loved and I point Constance, and Miss thomas who was in the library played was the third one. Then the madwoman

00:26:30.610 - 00:26:49.990

herself, john had that was such a heavy role that none of, no faculty member who would have the time to learn that part. So he got his top notch drama student who was an older woman to play the mad woman and it was, it was great

00:26:49.990 - 00:27:15.790

production. Now, you know, Constance was is the one with the imaginary dog. We had two Scotties and one the younger one was the son of the older one and so Lady Macduff was a regular hand, she's the mother. So after the first night, john said to

00:27:15.790 - 00:27:34.270

me, I want you to bring Lady Macduff and when we have the first curtain call, I want you to take her in your arms on stage and sharing that was indeed a master stroke, you know, it took the audience a minute to catch up with the

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fact that I had a real life dog in my arms and then the applause and the sounds of approval were just outstanding. It was, it was a lot of fun and Lady Macduff enjoyed the whole experience. Um um when you got to Sanford in your classroom

00:28:00.240 - 00:28:28.950

and everything, when you got to Howard College, did you find that you had enough supplies or their books adequate? Um the classrooms where they will heated things. I taught in something called P 0105, that's post office building one of five. This was, it was the building

00:28:28.950 - 00:28:56.030

on the right of main building. Uh as you're walking up towards me, It had been a fraternity house years ago and it had two rooms, 1 upstairs and one down. And this part of it was where the post office boxes were for the faculty and behind

00:28:56.030 - 00:29:21.960

that there was a little room where they kept the cold in my room and upstairs too, they both had pot bellied stoves, which I had to learn to tend to. Now the janitor would start it in the morning and bring in a couple of scuttle of

00:29:21.960 - 00:29:43.310

coal, I like cuddle up skull Mhm and I would have to keep that, I had to learn how to do with the damper on the up here and the opening the door properly down below and I had to feed that thing to keep it going. I

00:29:43.310 - 00:30:08.140

soon learned that my students know more about this kind of stuff than I did, who never had any experience like this in my life. But I got a student in every class to just you know, tend to the stove and there were times when things went

00:30:08.140 - 00:30:38.730

wrong with the heating system on campus, when I had the only warm room in the house. No that was dr Faust's room and by the way he was dr George P Faust Princeton PhD Rhodes scholar, a brilliant man and had the same kind of high standards

00:30:38.730 - 00:31:02.180

that I did and maintain them and was not any better liked by many of the ministerial students than I because we insisted that they meet these standards or they wouldn't pass. Of course Did Howard have a very um spiritual environment and was chapel chapel chapel was

00:31:02.180 - 00:31:32.430

required and they had a prayer room. One of the little houses just below p. 105. They had a prayer room where students could go at any time during the day and pray very often two of them would go together uh for I suppose peer counseling. Um

00:31:33.160 - 00:31:57.440

a ministerial student trying to lead a young woman along the right path or you know this sort of thing, but, but I think and I'm sure that for the most part that student body went to church on sunday you had a definite feeling of of a

00:31:57.440 - 00:32:36.090

spiritual atmosphere, yes. Was there, what was the boarding houses like during this time that we're on campus where they mainly for men or or females? Renfrow hall was used by the Navy during its time there and that was turned into a woman's dormitory after. And I

00:32:36.100 - 00:32:57.160

remember at one point I was asked, I think something happened to the house mother either she had to go to the hospital or whatever and was on a rather extended leave of absence and the major asked various female members of the faculty if we would for

00:32:57.160 - 00:33:32.450

two weeks at a time go be housemother. And so I felt that I should do my do you know, so over I went well, I remember well my own sorority life and the kind of manners that we had to observe. So I decided that what was

00:33:32.450 - 00:33:55.190

the first night, I think several of the girls came to the dinner table in curlers and I said out, they came in all kinds of garb, they came late, so I just made some ground rubes and I said now you will be on time or you

00:33:55.190 - 00:34:17.420

will not get dinner, you will come nicely dressed or at least decently dressed, you will come with hair comb, no curlers and you will sit at the table until everybody is through. There is no running off as soon as you gobble down your food. Well that

00:34:17.430 - 00:34:36.130

didn't sit very well as you can imagine. But I think after they got used to it they thought it was rather pleasant. Yeah I was brought up in the sorority house. We came to dinner on time and we did not leave until everybody was through on

00:34:36.130 - 00:34:58.270

Wednesday night. We had formal dinner, we dressed long dresses and we had dinner at seven instead of 6 30 we conversed until usually we didn't finish until 8 30. We have especially nice meal. Food was good any time but that was special. That one neither will.

00:34:59.050 - 00:35:23.310

And so I just decided these young women needed to learn some things. How was the food at? Howard? Was it good? I really don't remember. I think it was okay, nothing special. But now I'll tell you something across the street from the main building, there was

00:35:23.310 - 00:35:46.610

the athletic field and just to the right of that was the bookstore and behind the bookstore there was a little place where you could eat and the faculty used to go there and have lunch and we had great together. This was a lot of fun and

00:35:46.610 - 00:36:10.350

the food there was good, that's where I learned about cracklings, cracklin bread and I loved it. Sharon, I just loved it and lent brewster was then treasurer and he loved cracklin bread and when I appeared he would say so and they used to have good soup

00:36:11.060 - 00:36:32.590

and I love super. So that was nice because everybody, the major was always over there. Dean Burns was always over there. So there was a feeling of unity. That's right, unity and togetherness. We knew each other well. And for the most part we liked each other

00:36:32.590 - 00:37:01.350

and I think we liked each other because we were together and in the early days, you know, now we have a candlelight dinner. Well, we used to have that at Major Davis's home and his wife and the female members of the faculty put it on. Of

00:37:01.350 - 00:37:26.310

course, you know, things were much much smaller, but that's what, that's what what we did and people were out in the yard and there was lots of baptist women are good cooks, they really are. And so we had a we had a feast every year, was

00:37:26.310 - 00:37:39.400

a lot of work but was a lot of fun. And again we had the spirit of together. So if you had a problem and you needed to talk to a person of the administration, you could go in and it was a friend that you were talking

00:37:39.400 - 00:38:07.940

to. I think that's nice. It is nice. It is very, very nice. It's much much better than not not feeling welcome or talking to a stranger. Someone that you don't feel that understands you. Yes. For the most part those were happy years. Sharon I learned a

00:38:07.950 - 00:38:33.190

very great deal. Mhm from my students, from my colleagues from a situation that was entirely foreign to me. I did not know that there was that there was the bible belt. I did not know that there was such a thing as the fundamental Baptists that there

00:38:33.190 - 00:38:59.020

were people who really believed the way they believed. I did not know about the racial prejudice that negroes as they were called. Then had to ride in the back of the bus, had separate drinking fountains and toilets in department stores had their own movies. Couldn't go

00:38:59.020 - 00:39:25.370

to any concerts or any or anything cultural. I was absolutely astounded. You know in our school in the east you take history and the civil the civil war has one chapter that's all. So you learned dates and you learn about the civil war. But that's it

00:39:26.440 - 00:39:46.500

And my coming into this area and learning what I did it would be like our going to south africa and and living with the tribal people. We we read some things but we don't know until we get there what it's like. And so I learned a

00:39:46.500 - 00:40:16.730

great deal. I learned to understand some of the wise we had a very, very pleasant life and as I said, I thoroughly enjoyed my years at Howard college. I missed the major when he retired. He was indeed a close friend. I have done to him. He

00:40:16.740 - 00:40:34.270

seemed to be very well liked as a as a person and as an administrator. Yes that is true and of course Betty fisherman, his daughter I know very well. We are close friends and have been through the years I've known her since before she married. I

00:40:34.280 - 00:41:00.740

taught her sister Dorothy. Um Getting back to the racial issue. Were there very many minorities on campus? There were no minorities of any sort of blacks, No chinese, no as far as I know. Well now take it back once in a while we had Mr Mitchell

00:41:00.740 - 00:41:33.640

would remember better than I this I taught a chinese student who was a math major and who was brilliant just brilliant. They the math department couldn't keep up with him. They had to put in new courses with one of the professors taking him on alone because

00:41:33.650 - 00:41:58.790

they just ran out of courses in the department. And I taught him in freshman english. She said to me one day could I do whatever it was and I said but you're taking calculus at that hour. We wanted to sit in on another class of mine

00:41:59.220 - 00:42:21.270

and I said aren't you taking calculus? And he said no not anymore. I read the book so I'm through with that. He had a straight a average except for one. I can't remember whether it was a B or an f in volleyball. He was brilliant but

00:42:21.270 - 00:42:43.340

uncoordinated well I don't know what happened but you know this is really ridiculous. We were all up in arms about that because other than that he had Australia record that should have been erased. That's one time when I would approve of Great tampering. Which is something

00:42:43.340 - 00:43:11.810

I never, never, ever, ever, maybe he didn't turn into paper on time in volleyball. We are required, you are sometimes even now that we're required to write papers and mp, they're getting very strict about that. Okay. I can't swear to it, but I would think, but

00:43:11.820 - 00:43:44.960

if any minorities very very very few. Um What kind of curriculum did you have? Did you have just the basic courses like english and history, things like that called the core curriculum. Core curriculum. Okay. Yeah. Let's see. Did you notice any difference between the changes in

00:43:44.960 - 00:44:02.380

spirit from the old campus and the new campus? Was there a lessening of that? Sometimes during World War Two there was such togetherness to pull together and we were studying that some of that was lost after the move, there wasn't as much together. This administration didn't

00:44:02.380 - 00:44:26.670

sit down and have lunches and things like that. Did you notice any of that taking place? I don't think that it really impinged on my consciousness. There was a there was a large campus now with all these new buildings, There were distances to go from here

00:44:26.670 - 00:44:51.370

to there. MS foreman and I shared an office in the administration building and she had the front part and I had the back part, it was sort of a sweet up there on the third floor, I believe. Um Then that middle part was where room was

00:44:51.370 - 00:45:17.020

where she had her that was her classroom and then adjacent to that were all connected by doors from our office as well as from the hall, there was a lounge and we had rocking chairs and straight chairs and a couple of tables and a hot plate

00:45:17.030 - 00:45:38.220

and the coffee pot. And we used to and we just started bringing our lunch and MS Forman and I would gather we would have lunch together in there and there were a number of other people that was Lauren Vice. She was Secretary in the Education department

00:45:39.600 - 00:46:05.110

And she was the one who knew all the requirements for to get a teaching certificate, state requirements. And she usually joined us, Mr Mitchell often joined us. Now, MS Farman was a brilliant purse and she and mr Mitchell, he would sit in the rock and chair

00:46:05.110 - 00:46:26.510

and rock and they would get going at each other. Both of them could make caustic remarks, and Mr Mitchell would say something to her, she'd be right back at him, she'd say something to him and she'd say Gotcha didn't and he'd be right back at her.

00:46:26.510 - 00:46:50.530

So we used to have a lot of fun. We had some very very, very serious conversations. It was a good talking time. He talked about politics, we talked about educational problems. Um We were being confronted with, I think at this time more and more students who,

00:46:52.160 - 00:47:18.410

we were swinging back to those students who who fresh out of high school too young, who didn't know what they wanted to do or why not? We're not motivated did not do well and MS Forman Standard C she was a counselor ah hurt her standard advice

00:47:19.090 - 00:47:41.990

to students would be go in the military and stay for a year or two until you grow up. And it was a good many of them did. I think it was very sound advice because a good man of these youngsters were just too immature hm to

00:47:41.990 - 00:48:07.610

take college. They've been molly cuddled in high school. We were already sharing at a time when standards were beginning to lower all over from the kindergarten straight out through graduate school. Of course after the move, which was in 58 you get 57 excuse me, you get

00:48:07.610 - 00:48:31.320

into your getting into the sixties era. Do you think that that had any impact on the curriculum falling? And probably so now, of course I left Howard College in 62 that was before they changed their name, which they did in 65 as you know, but we

00:48:31.320 - 00:49:09.520

were already beginning to feel lowering of standards of people coming in who weren't as well prepared. And also what was happening at the time was new people coming into the faculty, We're getting paid more than we with 10, 15 years experience at lower ranks, first year

00:49:09.520 - 00:49:33.080

teachers. The reason for that was it was a shortage of college personnel and they could demand higher wages and they made some fantastic demands and this was true all over the country and for the most part these demands were met because in order to get classes

00:49:33.080 - 00:49:58.630

man faculty had to be hired. Well how did the older? Well we were very resentful the people who had tenure. Yeah, we were very resentful at some young whippersnapper coming in for his first year teaching after having finished his master's degree, Uh making $1,000 more than

00:49:58.630 - 00:50:18.550

we were, which at that time was a lot of money to me, it's still a lot of me. Um Well do you think that students left Howard well prepared, in contrast to people live in Sanford well prepared. Well I think for the most part students left

00:50:18.550 - 00:50:43.400

howard well prepared. We had an excellent faculty. We really did. We, we had dr zan in chemistry who was top notch, we had nash collier in in math who was top notch. Uh We had a good for the most part, we we had a good two

00:50:43.410 - 00:51:07.880

fairly good english department. Now we had lemons along the way, That's bound to happen in the department as large as the english department, even though the english department is small when you think that Purdue has 100 and 23 people in the english department. Now that counts

00:51:07.880 - 00:51:40.980

the graduate assistance. But nevertheless the regular tenured faculty must be somewhere around 70. So um we had good people in in history, we had dr chapman in religion and I know he was uh splendid. He certainly was one of the sweetest men I have ever known

00:51:42.390 - 00:52:11.630

and so polite. It was made you uncomfortably, he was so polite. Sure as I said there were lemons but for the most part we had enough really good people to put out good students. How true that is now. I don't know Sharon, I have not taught

00:52:12.760 - 00:52:35.550

Sanford except to steal a class from Mr Mitchell every once in a while I am appalled though that students are not motivated, they don't want anything and they resent demands being made on them. I have I found I found that beginning to be true in my

00:52:35.550 - 00:53:00.370

last years of Purdue among the english majors going into teaching and that was very distressing to me. But I have found it here especially I've taught Mr Mitchell's 102 for three weeks and I know the class resented me now, they resented me because they liked Mr

00:53:00.370 - 00:53:18.210

Mitchell and they decided that the outset they weren't going to like me. But and I think probably that's because we might have handled the situation badly. But anyway they thought my tests were too hard, they thought I was too hard and I said I can't believe

00:53:18.210 - 00:53:37.740

that I'm hard any harder than Mr Mitchell. Well we're used to him. That was their comment but they did not do well I did poetry and I could not convince them that in order to study poetry you didn't read a poem. You didn't do your last

00:53:37.750 - 00:54:00.960

two minutes. You got out several dictionaries and you looked up all the words. Even the ones you thought you knew. No I find students won't at least this my recent experience which is certainly short. But I think that's now Mr Mitchell complains about this all the

00:54:00.960 - 00:54:17.240

time. So I know it's so Mrs Brown complained. The whole english department complains about. Well what I want to ask you one more question. Um What do you think the most the most important contribution how we're made to their students? Do you think it was their

00:54:17.240 - 00:54:48.090

education or maybe the spiritual influence they received? Or you mean in in my days at Howard I would say all of the above I would say they got a good basic education they were. They knew their professors. See when the english department had conferences with all

00:54:48.090 - 00:55:06.750

our students, other departments did to the faculty was easily accessible. They were there all the time. One of the things I found that talking with professors they found that they just don't have enough time to converse with their students. You know it's it's you know we

00:55:06.750 - 00:55:23.160

have so many meetings at him so many classes have gotten larger. They have so many papers to grade and you just don't get the one on one that you received when you were at Howard that you were talking about. When you've got 750 800 900 students

00:55:23.170 - 00:55:50.900

during so many years now we increased all along. But it means a very great deal Sharon to a student to have a one on one relationship with his professor because that student stands in awe of that professor, I don't care who he is and to be

00:55:50.900 - 00:56:24.400

able to sit and talk with them on a human basis level is meaningful when doctor courts was inaugurated that had a luncheon for you know with all these visiting dignitaries. One of the people at the luncheon was Roger Lovett Who was a ministerial student of mine

00:56:24.400 - 00:56:58.370

way back in the 40s, it must have been 47 Or early 50s when it might have been doing my math. Roger had done, he is a minister in somewhere near where Mr courts, somewhere near Wingate College and Roger did the prayer for the morning breakfast. I

00:56:58.370 - 00:57:20.790

had not seen Roger and I had I had kept in touch with what he was up to and everything about him through other students whom we do have contact with. But Roger and I had had no personal contact and he was sitting, they had two tiers

00:57:20.790 - 00:57:43.610

of tables and he was sitting at the lower one and I said to Mr Mitchell, I have got to go up and speak to roger. So I did, there was great hugging in 25 years in between. It's great hunting and carrying on mrs courts came up

00:57:43.620 - 00:58:06.510

about that time and they know each other well. Apparently he knew the courts is very well closely and he said, marla, I want you to meet one of the dearest people in the world and one of the very, very best teachers I ever had. And he

00:58:06.510 - 00:58:39.830

said, I've never had anybody like you, he said furthermore, she used to have her classes come to her beautiful home. The living room was lined with books and we would have a class there and then she would serve refreshments with beautiful silver plates and linen napkins.

00:58:41.450 - 00:59:10.380

And he said I was a country boy from a very, very small town in Alabama. I had never been in a home like this. I had never experienced anything like this. He said, I will never so you see that now, I always had classes over and

00:59:10.380 - 00:59:27.940

we would have class. Sometimes I have them for supper. I always had my short story class over because they did a short stories, their final project and we would have supper and then they would read um I had other classes over. If I had a freshman

00:59:27.940 - 00:59:44.230

class it was small enough, I would have them, I had a group of ministerial students and roger was one of them at this at this particular time who for the four years A Win College took me to lunch on my birthday and always gave me an

00:59:44.240 - 00:59:44.910

Arky.