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This is an interview with mrs Virginia Eagles deterred for the Sanford University oil history program by Rebecca l thomas at her home at 78 12 5th Avenue South Birmingham Alabama on november 11th 1985. Mrs I know your father was uh Dean Eagles. And so you were

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born the year he came to the campus. Did could you give me a little bit of information about his background? He came from, I'd be happy to uh I'd like to tell you first that he was not dean, he was just a professor of mathematics. And

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at the time uh soon after he came, he became a business manager and the vice president of the college. Uh they say in 1913 they came and I don't know whether they came was September opening after night, but I was born in November 1913. And there

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was a little small house on the campus right on the edge of the Howard College campus. And that little house was owned by the birds. And that's when the eagles moved in to rent that little house. And they lived there about two years and then they

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made a move to another house which was they rented and that particular house was down near back, buy the clothes and the clothes that left in it. And when the crows moved out, the Eagles moved in. So we talked about living in the bird's house, but

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as a child did you go on the campus very often I did. My mother was not too well at the time. I was very small little girl. So my father took me up on the campus with me and I would sit on the steps of the

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color of the main building of the campus and sit there and play and get out right around there and play and talk to the students into the faculty as they came by going to in front classes and I would wait until my father came to get

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me and take me home. I would also like to say that another important character and the person who was very much on the college campus and was my mother's sister because she came to live with about the same time and she lived with us and shared

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a room with me from the time I was born until she passed away at the age of 90. I took care of her for the last 14 years of her life. She her name was Marie Boss, B. O. S. T. And she when they came here

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was appointed to be the library at the time the college didn't have too much of a library and she went to work and she did not have a, did not have a degree in library science. But she went to all of the library meetings wherever they

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might be in the southern region and was sent there to learn the library system and she learned it and learned it well and she built up the library to a great number of materials and books that they didn't have before. And it became quite like they

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had something that the Library of Congress would have liked very much to have gotten. And when uh, the Southern Association of Colleges came in and acquired a degree there, then she went to the reference room and that's when Miss Maple Willow came into the head librarian.

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Um uh when, when you came on to the campus, where did you interact with the students very much? Or uh they come play with you? Yes, yes, they did. And they used to have picnics and my parents were very sociable and they went out on picnics

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a lot of time at old Turkey Creek And the uh students, a number of the students were there, you know, who were participating in activities like that. And uh, I got to know so many of them, you know, and I just love them so much and

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they seem to care a lot about me. In fact there were about two of the young men that I told them just wait till I grew up I was going to marry, Did you keep that? Yes, I followed them through and I've seen several of them

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since then. Were their wives now, how did you get to Turkey Creek with on the street car? We had, we had cars at the time that I'm talking about automobiles and we had an old dodge. I think it was at the time that we used to

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go out there for picnics. Where is Turkey Creek? It's out near Tarin at that time? You know, the water was very clear and beautiful and they fall so pretty and I'm sure now it's deteriorated into a place where people don't want to go very much, but

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at that time it was a very, very beautiful place. Did the students have cars or how did they get there? You know, some of the people who had cars took them out with us, would, would it be a campus event with all the students? It was

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just a certain group, a certain group of people that wanted to go out together. And was your father very active in the student life? Yes, he he loved his ministerial students and he worked very hard for them and saw that any number of them got a

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college education and we're ready to go out to be ministers in the baptist churches across the state of Alabama. And he was worked very close with that ministerial group. Another thing that he used to do, which was so interesting because I used to drive with him

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every way he went practically when he'd go out, he was sort of the college speaker on christian education and trying to get students to come to Howard College. So he went to all kinds of dinners and banquets all over this state and I went with him

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in a number of times when he made these talks on christian education and howard college and urging people to send their sons and their daughters howard college. Um, what age were you then? Yeah, I presume I was at the time that I was doing most of

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the driving. I mean going with him was around 11, 12 and 13. Early teams, sub teens and early teens. Where did you go to school? I went to, I went back to school and then I transferred to Robinson because we were right on the boundary line

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and I missed my friends at Barrett. So I had my father make a plea for me to send me back to Barrett. So I went back to Barrett and I finished the elementary school at Barrett. And then from there I went to Woodland High School and

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that we had such a wonderful faculty at, at went on high school and that was just a sheer enjoyment for me. What were your favorite subjects in high school? I expect that english literature was one of my fondest things and I loved my voice, uh music

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education very much. And I was in a number of operators during my high school, was there ever any question where you would go to college? Not in my father's mind, but I'm sure that in my mother's mind in my mind that we had other plans that

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we'd like very much for me to go as well. And my father had quite a something, he had something on his, on his mind, you know, trying to influence that business of my going to Howard. And so he put his foot down and I had to

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go to Howard. Uh you mentioned your mother was presbyterian And did you attend church? Did you? Where did your father attend church? He was very much a leader. Down it came a baptist church and then he was most active in leadership roles in sunday school. Did

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he teach sunday school? Yes, he had a class at one time and he was uh I forgot what what class it was but he had a big class there in the sun school. But you and your mother were Presbyterian? Well I didn't become a presbyterian until

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I was around 12 years ago I went to baptist church Sunday school because we were so nearby and it was so easy to walk there and get back. Both manning and I I went went to sunday school when Manning joined the church. It was at that

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time my mother stepped in and said we're going to the presbyterian Church and so all three of you. So my mother, my aunt Marie boss and I went to the presbyterian Church downtown which which the first presbyterian church who was the minister there, do you remember

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dr was there when we first went and some years afterwards I don't know exactly how many, but I went over with my father when he made a speech over the South Island Presbyterian Church and it wasn't long after that. But I went over and joined the

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South Island Church and my mother and my aunt came along and joined with me. So we spent the main part of our church life at the South Island Presbyterian Church. Now, let's go back to you. Wanted to attend another college? Where did you want to go

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to college? Oh, I think we had, I had I really had the university of north Carolina in mind because that had been my father's model both for his A B and his master's degree. And of course what he did was the thing I wanted to do.

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I think my mother might have had one of those uh girls schools up towards Brown in Virginia. Somewhere in mind. And why did you do your father put his foot down? Why did he decide that you had to go to Howard? He was such a loyal

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man and believed in that college so much. And then the professors and what those professors were able to give in the way of an education. And he felt that any loyal person working for Howard College are involved in the operation of the Howard College should have

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sent their Children to Howard. So that have seen that they went, was your father very strict or was it just in matters that he felt great? Important? No, he wasn't, he wasn't a strict person, but that was just important to him. He was so loyal and

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loyalty would be the word I would use because he wanted his Children to be educated at Howard College. We did work out a deal though. The deal was that I would go to Howard. But I, some summer I could go to the university of north Carolina

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and that's exactly what I did by junior year, I went up to the summer school and stayed the entire summer at the university of north Carolina. And of course at that time I was so interested in the drama and that, that's where I spent mostly in

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the english division during classes in the drama and playing parts with the Carolina playmakers, which was one of the most famous university groups under Professor Koch. And that's where I really uh developed this tremendous interest in, in the drama. But you were very active in drama

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Howard. But you just felt like you had more resources at North Korea. That's right. That's right. Because they had such an outstanding drama department under Professor Koch. How did your father feel about you being in drama? He was a scientist, mathematician, mathematician, scientist scientific. How did

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he feel about you? Your interest in the arts? And I think he loved it. I think he was, he wanted very much for me to have opportunities in that. But he did encourage me to go ahead and get by enough credits in the teacher teaching profession

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that I would be able to teach. He was afraid you would not be able to use your drugs. Right? That's right. And he was a practical man. Is that how you would, I would say he was very practical man that he would not discourage, he would

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encourage anything that his Children were interested in, provided it was in the light of Christianity. Um, well did when you went into campus as a student, did you feel different than just going on campus as uh, the son of, I mean the daughter of uh Professor

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Eagles, did, did you feel you were treated differently or how did you feel about going there as a student as compared to just playing on campus? Oh, I think I went in and went there and then at the college knowing that I was going to enjoy

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being very much. But I think I felt that maybe I wouldn't have the opportunities to be myself in other words. And I think that I might have been just a little bit hesitant for that reason. It took me about a year really developing come out as

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a, as a student. Shall I say, Oh, why did you feel like, well I felt being the daughter of a well known and well loved personality that I couldn't measure up to what they might expect the daughter to measure up to and all I wanted to

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be was just to be myself and you felt like you had to, to set an example to set an example it might be and I was just a little bit, hasn't been about everything in that one reason you may have wanted to go to another school.

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So, so um, did your father understand that part of it or did he? I'm sure he did, I'm sure um, did um, I guess you knew that all the faculty already. How did you feel about, well most of them had probably been to your house. How

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did you feel about having classes under them after you? I love, I love all of my professors and I think that every one of them being in that class was a model and I will call some of them if you'd like for me to Miss Annie

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was one of the, oh I think one of the most outstanding english teachers that there was anywhere, they just couldn't have been any, any of them better. And she was wonder taught us english grandma and of course I feel like maybe I have lost a lot

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of it that just in daily life, you know and speaking as well as she wanted us to. But she really drilled grandma into us and and she was a delightful personality and her father had a, he was a photographer and he had a shop downtown and

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made so many portrait pictures of everybody in town. He was just noted for his work and they were uh natives here in, in Birmingham and and she married in later years and went up to live with her husband in pennsylvania. And when I went up there

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to work in Pittsburgh, the Y. W. C. A. A fire, I soon found out that she was living not very far from where I was living and my aunt and I went down to the place that she was living and had dinner with her several times.

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She and her husband and she was teaching english in a in a high school. There there was another person that I that was here for a while but left at the time they were having such a financial struggle and she was another excellent english teacher and

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her name was Miss French Haynes, H. A. Y. N. E. S. Said she was from north Carolina And I went to see her this summer. She's 89 years old, she is partially blind and I think declared legally blind. But she prepared the most wonderful dinner for

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three girls three of us and served that dinner herself. And it was just marvelous to see how she was getting around and how she was working And she was justice entertaining as she could be. And what did she teach, taught english. Um See you were not

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in a sorority, is that right? Uh did you, why did you decide to join a sorority did you? My sister in law had been a sorority person. Uh your your brother was already married? Um They were married when I was in high school, so they were

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about a year ahead in school, uh and they had already finished out and I really think when it came down to making a choice, that that was the thing that finally influenced me, although I delayed my choice until several weeks after the official rush had stopped

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because I wanted to be sure in my own mind as to what I was doing. And so I went, she was a Delta Zeta, and that's when I joined. Um Was there a big, almost all the women on campus joined sorority? No uh there were personal

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campus, they had around five sororities and a number of them did join the sorority. They were about, I think as far as membership were concerned they were all pretty much equal in the numbers that they had, but then there was a large group that did not

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join a sorority and didn't seem to work or to meet a sorority, but well you see it was a small campus and a small number of students on there, so we really got to know a lot of students on campus and we were friendly with, so

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it's your friendships were not just bound to the sorority. That's right, we developed and of course I had an opportunity I guess being the daughter of a professor of broadening all of my uh friends among the different groups at that time. Did they have initiation into

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the sorority? Yes it was a national sorority. What kind of things did you have to do to for the initiation? Do you remember as far as any are you talking about like if they had hazing or anything like that? They know they didn't have anything. Of

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course we felt like the seniors who were there, you know tell us a little funeral things we had to do and we would do it, you know? But there was no uh there wasn't any hazing or anything like that there there was for the boys, the

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boys but not not the girls, their very lives. Where did you live while you were attending? We lived in on 88th Street and 2nd Avenue South. You never lived in a dorm or sorority house? No, no I left at home the whole time. Um did you

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say you were in the Y. W. C. A. I was president of the Y. W. C. A. On the campus. And what kind of things did you do with the Y. W. C. A. You know, I just don't think we did too much of anything at

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the time. Uh We did have our meeting, regular meetings and I can't remember I think they were monthly meetings that we had and we had a faculty advisor and I think we just were really sort of promoting the christian way of life more than anything else

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by example of what we tried to do there on the campus, um you were in a great many plays and uh stunt night you were in charge of the stunt night, Could you tell me those, do you remember stunt might or you know, I've forgotten about

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many of the things that we did back there, I didn't realize I had been channeling, but but I do remember the, some of the place that I was in and you might be interested in knowing that uh when I went there they had had a drama

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uh club, I guess you would call it, but it had sort of ceased to be when I got there at least there were no classes in drama, I wanted so much to be in something like that and they just want anything for me to to participate

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in or to take a class in. I had studied uh you might say elocution from a person here in Birmingham, that I thought was very good and I knew had a good college background in the field of drama and that was Antoinette Sparks. Now she has

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married since then, but that was her name at the time. And so I got when my father and I told him that what I wanted and I felt like there might be others that would want that and please see if he couldn't get her approved as

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a faculty number to teach classes and play production and the drama filled drama, So he did, he went to work and internet was employed to come there to teach and that was after she talked and they formed the Howard mascots. I believe they call them at

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that time under her direction and we began to have placed there again but they had had a drama there before place they just settle down and I think that's probably what happened. Um uh can what kind of parts did you play in the, I always have

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been a comic and I played a lot of character parts and enjoyed it to the full fullest and being in place and I just loved anything about that. One of the summer place. I know I took on getting a program ready for them you know and

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going around getting ads and going downtown and employed a person to go with other students and we just had a ball going around talking to the merchants and getting the merchants to give us advertisements for the little, the folder that we were gonna have for the

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program. Oh you also worked with the Entre News. Oh yes. Uh Not the Entre knew I wasn't that that was the yearbook Entre but Howard Crimson uh I was editor for the Junior Edition and that was the highlight in my life to be an editor as

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I thought was so important that what kind of things did you do to get the paper out? Well I remember the one of the most outstanding thing, Amelia Earhart was in town to sell her line of clothes. And I thought an interview, a personal interview with

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the millionaire Heart would just be the makings for that paper. Now. Uh there was a boy before I get into continue that with a million Heart, I want to say that I had a managing director because I knew within my own heart that I was not

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a newspaper editor. And there was a fellow in my class called Michael, I think it was Dunbar something on that order. I'm not the kind of left me. But Michael was a good newspaper man and I knew it and I asked him if he would take

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over the managing of this one edition for the House of Crimson and he would be called the Managing Director, a managing editor. Excuse me. And so Michael became that And I went out for this interview with Heart with Michael and we couldn't get we couldn't get

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anywhere close. So finally I said, Michael, we've got to get an interview with So we found out some way of, I can't remember exactly how we found out where our room was. We went in back doors and and we finally got up to her room and

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we knocked on the door and she came out and we had she knew that we were trying to see her but she admired the spunk of these two students. And so she invited us in and we had this interview. Well, I was so excited that I

00:29:05.480 - 00:29:24.350

forgot that I was supposed to be that interview about this line of clothes and all I could think was really hard and airplanes. And I started out on airplanes and the whole interview became on the subject of airplanes and flying. Did you really enjoyed it though?

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Did she had, I just enjoyed it so much. She was a lovely, lovely person. Did you write up the interview? Yes, yes, of course. Michael was there and he put in probably edited the whole article and got it in the space that was allowed for that

00:29:45.070 - 00:30:09.620

interview. We put out a real successful edition I think. Yeah, I'm sure you did. But I bet did did that thrill a lot of people on campus that you made? I really don't know how, I think I would have been running around. Um, uh, you were

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there during the period of the depression. How did the depression affect finances of the campus? Do you? End of the students do you feel a lot of the students had to work on, They did have to work a lot of jobs in town and they were

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jobs, they were wherever they could find work to do. Many of them were stoking people's furnaces for them. They were doing yard work. They were doing any kind of work they could, many of them were on scholarships that they could get from anywhere. They could get

00:30:46.680 - 00:31:06.390

a scholarship. The faculty at many times were not paid their salary during that time. And I really and truly I don't know how they got lost. I did being uh a student at that time and not in not having the responsibilities. I really didn't know that

00:31:06.400 - 00:31:27.950

we were having the depression so to speak. But I remember hearing my father talk later about those years and he uh we found a book in which instance his he had made kept a list of all the students that he had had. He had helped through

00:31:27.950 - 00:31:49.780

his salary that wasn't paid at the time. And uh I don't know what became of the book. What do you mean? He wasn't giving craig, he didn't get a salary during certain times. And he kept students through giving them part of that salary just by passing

00:31:49.780 - 00:32:13.030

it on to them. In other words, a record that record that wasn't alone. No, it was just gave to keep them in school. Um How do you think he and the other faculty got by with no sound. I don't know how they did. I know a

00:32:13.030 - 00:32:31.810

number of them left instance. Very famous professor here was dr sam P. And dr sam had to take. He just said he could have to feed his family had to have milk with Children and that's when he moved out and went to furman University that was

00:32:31.810 - 00:32:51.480

in south Carolina. Um And I just, they just got along the best they could. I think many of them borrow don't like insurance. I know that was one of the things I heard my father later said that he did borrowed on his life insurance. Keep us

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going. But that was to keep going. Now measures were taken to keep the school. Did you know, he was, that was when he became the business manager of the college and he did all the buying and purchasing for the college. And that's when he made so

00:33:10.040 - 00:33:32.490

many contacts with the businessmen here in Birmingham. He would go down and often I drove down with him to when he picked up his deliveries and things would go down there and uh get the supplies from wholesale places on old Morris avenue. And he visited with

00:33:32.500 - 00:33:48.230

those men and he had, if he couldn't, the college could not pay a bill on time, he immediately got in contact with the men and told them how he would pay it and the best way that he would pay it. And he always lived up to

00:33:48.230 - 00:34:09.710

his work and they respected him for that because they weren't paid. But I knew that he did, he did an awful lot of business arrangements with those merchants. Um because he was buying for the dormitories, the boys and the girls dormitory to feed them at that

00:34:09.720 - 00:34:32.100

time. Did the enrollment of the school drop off during the depression. I really don't know. It seemed to me that during the time I was there from 30 to 35 in the 35 That the student body remained about the same, I think it was around 600

00:34:32.110 - 00:34:57.190

people and students on campus. So you did not really get the, the administration kept that feeling of hardship away from the students and I think they did, I think they did, it was not a student life and life went on as if nothing happened, nothing was

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happening. Uh Were you interested in current events, being a newspaper editor? Did you read all the newspapers, the Birmingham News and h Harold some some of the articles I think, but during that time, I know that Birmingham was not near as large as it is now

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and there was so much more on a personal nature that was published in those newspapers. And Howard College was something about Howard College was in there almost constant. And of course we like to keep up with what was going on there on the campus and they

00:35:36.410 - 00:35:57.380

ran so many pictures, you know, of faculty members and student life and and uh all the different sororities and fraternities and about the ministerial students. It was just the news in those those times, in Howard College was right in there. Another thing about how college that

00:35:57.380 - 00:36:18.030

I remember hearing uh talk was back so many of the big schools in the, in the north at the time would accept Howard students without any entrance examinations at that time Because of the scholarship? And they had so many phds on our campus and they would

00:36:18.030 - 00:36:42.840

accept them without taking an exam. Um how, how, I wonder how Howard attracted the talent in faculty that they did because they obviously don't have a large endowment. How were they able to attract these uh good faculty members? Do you know? I don't, I don't really

00:36:42.840 - 00:37:03.250

know that. I was wondering if you'd ever heard your father? No, I didn't. I never did hear him say, but I knew they had they had an outstanding faculty all during the time that I was going to school. Another I guess another reason Howard was in

00:37:03.250 - 00:37:26.680

the paper all the time was the football, in the big rivalry between mileage and Howard. That was a big event. Do you remember any particular incidents that happened? I don't remember too much in the incidents that happened about that football things, but I know there was

00:37:26.690 - 00:37:51.920

not anyone that was more ardent ah Cheryl and a believer in the football boys and the gangs and my father and he was, he got so excited. One time he got so excited, threw away his gold watch up in the air and broke all the pieces.

00:37:53.760 - 00:38:14.200

But either he loved, he loved the sports as well, you know, he loved for them to win and especially against burning hands up southern. He was really a router. I heard his, his cheer described as a cross between the rebel yell and hi ho Silver explanation

00:38:14.200 - 00:38:32.200

of did you sit with your father at the I was down there on Saturdays usually bring him conservative or music, taking my piano lessons and he would come flying in to pick me up at the end of that lesson and right next door, there was a

00:38:32.210 - 00:38:48.030

place where they had sandwiches, you know, and the window was kind of open where you could see. And then I remember one time it usually turned out to be a rabbit sandwich, a fried rabbit sandwich. He would come and get and we would go and that's

00:38:48.030 - 00:39:18.820

what I would have from my lunch going out to football again and they played at legion field. Do you remember anything about the incident where the howard uh boy named um Westbrook shot and killed a Birmingham southern boy named Friedman. Do you remember anything about that?

00:39:18.830 - 00:39:45.840

I don't remember too much about that would have been in 1928 before that was before I got that. I don't remember anything wondering. I'm sure all the faculty and all that said about it. But you don't remember anything too much. The the you were in the

00:39:45.850 - 00:40:09.870

place. That was Gilpatrick in the place when you were, do you remember Gail Patrick was a senior when I entered in february. She was a senior. So she finished at the end of that year and she entered a contest and somebody I believe somebody entered her

00:40:09.870 - 00:40:32.500

into the contest of the panther woman and she went down there and won the contest. And that was when she went out to Hollywood as a panther. But I don't know say I don't know who sponsored the contest, but it was a national contest and she

00:40:32.500 - 00:40:51.740

went out there and and of course became quite a movie star and I was wondering that had tempered you into wanting to be in drama, but that was something you wanted to do anyway that I had been interested in drama from the time I was in

00:40:51.750 - 00:41:16.200

drama school. Um Now after you graduated from Howard, you you went to work for the Y. W. C. O. First of all in the year 35 36 I went off on the scholarship to Northwestern University for a year and I went up there and entered the

00:41:16.200 - 00:41:41.730

school of speech on this scholarship which I won for myself. I wrote 52 letters but I did have the expert typing from the person that was serving as my father's secretary at that time and then became Dr. Neil's secretary. Um She was Annabelle him and Hollingsworth

00:41:41.730 - 00:42:03.680

and she typed all my 52 letters that I wrote out, two different drama schools and and places that I thought I would like to go study and right at the last minute Northwestern University came through I had several office office from some drama drama schools. But

00:42:03.690 - 00:42:21.730

I chose that because I felt it would be for a whole year and the others were probably for just the summer. And where was Northwestern's Evanston Illinois? Oh, did your father know that you were applying for those scholars? Well, well, well, well aware of and he

00:42:21.740 - 00:42:41.100

encouraged, encouraged. Um, then then you studied there for you then what did you do? He my father and I have to give him credit because he knew he was not in good health. He was the one that got my job here in the city teaching auditorium

00:42:41.110 - 00:43:01.100

at Avondale school. So when I was called back at his serious illness and finally his death in the summer, early summer time. I went to teaching after taking summer school and taking some teacher training courses up there. I think it was sociology, I was lacking in

00:43:01.110 - 00:43:19.600

two courses and I took that during the summer and I began teaching then auditorium at after school and I talked there for six years. And then then what what did you do? Well then I was called, this was the beginning of World War Two and I

00:43:19.600 - 00:43:38.500

was called over to Macon Georgia through the interest of anti Boyette who was over there teaching at Mercer University in Macon and she knew the local theater needed a director to replace a person that was called into the army. So that was the way the connection

00:43:38.500 - 00:44:01.070

was made there and I went over there for a year to direct the summer theater and in the summer theater. Excuse me the theater, the community here. And while I was doing that there was a person from national Y. W. C. A. UsO came back back

00:44:01.070 - 00:44:24.980

down there too and found out about my work there and offered me a job in the uh USO program through the Y. W. C. A. And I went into that during the during World War two. And and then you prevent you after after I had the

00:44:24.990 - 00:44:43.510

war was over I went east. One of my high school english teachers that went on high school sent for me to come up there and they she and her husband would help me get started and what was her name? Her name was Dorothy blew it walker.

00:44:48.020 - 00:45:07.090

And how long did you live there? Well they have to find an apartment for me and I left and I got a job a part time job in Presbyterian Church which was in the neighborhood directing the young people in their sunday work in the recreational activities

00:45:07.090 - 00:45:23.210

on friday night, a part time job. And that way I was able to go into new york to explore around and to participate in any number different things. And I was up there with the church two years and at that time they wanted to see a

00:45:23.210 - 00:45:40.780

contacted me and asked me if I'd be interested in going back when they found out I was not interested in going back into the U. S. O. Offered me the job there in new york city as director of the teenager work? That uh new york branch

00:45:40.790 - 00:46:01.190

which was on Lexington avenue. Did you ever get involved in theater in new york on my own? After after work hours, I got involved in little groups that were trying out, you know, for what you call off broadway and I became, I was a stage manager

00:46:01.200 - 00:46:38.410

for one of those things and one of those plays and and I did just all kinds of things after my, I was, you said you worked with NBC. I worked, I worked with the costume designer as a volunteer, I was a volunteer, I just

00:46:38.420 - 00:46:55.390

did it to learn and she let me work with her on some of the outstanding shows and tv tv was just beginning at that time and that was quite an experience. It was not alone, I didn't do it a lot but I did some of the

00:46:55.390 - 00:47:14.810

show with her and then then, but you mainly did that for your experience for off broadway is that well, it just did it because I was interested and I could learn everything about the theater at that time. And how long did you stay in new york?

00:47:15.820 - 00:47:43.010

Well I lived in in new york, you know where my church had been, I was still living where and commuted back and forth each day and I was up there. a total of around ah four or 5 years in that area. And then did you eventually

00:47:43.010 - 00:48:03.740

come back to Birmingham when I went to back into the Y. W. Program and say I went to Wellington Delaware And I was there about six years now. Wait a minute. Excuse me. It was three years that I was in Wilmington Delaware. And then I continued

00:48:03.740 - 00:48:21.550

on with my Y. W. C. A. That's how I got back into the Y. W. C. A. Work. And when you came back to Birmingham, was it working with the Y no, I retired after I had traveled around the country about changing what you see is

00:48:21.550 - 00:48:42.170

about every six years. Did you request that or does the wine normally transfer people? Now we had to request it. And I think most, most people who were doing whatever work would they were going to a place that they were trying to build up a program.

00:48:42.170 - 00:48:56.900

They would build it up and they had reached the point where they felt like the program was going very well and they needed other challenges, you know, and they would apply to be changed. Now, you worked with youth. I worked with youth and then I worked

00:48:56.910 - 00:49:21.730

with young adults many years. What kind of programs did you set up? Well uh we would probably have afternoons after school for the younger Children. We'd go on trips, Saturdays and we would go, we would have little dances for them and they would have uh drawn

00:49:21.730 - 00:49:41.340

little drama clubs and they would have all kinds of groups, interest groups meet once or twice a week and then the young adults would have course dances and they would have parties and trips and things like that. That was the job that I was doing, directing

00:49:41.340 - 00:50:00.730

all those different things, being sure that all the details worked out in advance so that everybody would have a good time to get back, get home safely. You've done a lot of that already at Howard, hadn't you? Um How would you say that your experience? Is

00:50:00.730 - 00:50:25.420

that Howard shaped your life? Do you feel uh that now do you regret not going to the other? No, I don't regret have had such pleasant memories of all my college experience at Howard. And I feel like the most, the most wonderful driving force that we

00:50:25.420 - 00:50:48.310

all experienced at that time was not only the quality of the staff at the faculty and their influence on our lives, but we had such question influenced and caring for others and that I think had the greatest effect on my life, because I have always, since

00:50:48.310 - 00:51:16.310

then been a very caring person about everyone I meet. And I think that I got that somehow in college and the people that were there directing the scholastic work for the students. Um We had also we had such wonderful chapel experiences, you know, and we were

00:51:16.310 - 00:51:38.370

required to go many, many, many, many years, which I'm very thankful that we were, another thing that I want before I forget it, I want to tell you about was wonderful influence everybody. Every student was required to take a year in the bible. And we had

00:51:38.380 - 00:52:03.960

the most wonderful teacher was dr Elo Dawson Dawson Memorial Church is named for him. That was his church. He was passed out at the time. He was, oh, because it wasn't called Dawson Memorial. I don't believe that baptist church and he was the most wonderful, of

00:52:03.960 - 00:52:26.850

course. I thought he was old man at the time and he was just a delightful personality and he just was an inspiration to all of us. And we had a good years bible study and I wouldn't give anything for that. Do you think you would have

00:52:26.860 - 00:52:51.100

gone to the chapels if they had not been required? I believe I would have. Yes. The programs were interested, always interested. Uh, who, who came to some of the programs, were they mainly faculty led or did the students uh, lead Some of them? I think they

00:52:51.100 - 00:53:22.720

were more or less uh, where the uh, faculty lead and they invited so many outside men and women that came to speak to us as well. As I remember. Um, you mentioned, your mother and father entertained socially a lot. Um Yes, my, my mother was was

00:53:22.730 - 00:53:48.600

beautiful entertainer and she had a very wonderful sense of humor. So did my father and also they, she was, she had just been brought up with this artistic ability to entertain and love to entertain. So they became the the people who whenever they had visitors at

00:53:48.610 - 00:54:07.260

the college, my mother and father were usually the ones that entertained for those visitors. Do you think that helped you in life to have the contact with that? Those types of people that would visit the college? Yes, yes. It was a broadening experience for me because

00:54:07.270 - 00:54:23.780

when they came at the home, you see, we were at the dinner table with them and heard the conversation and participate in the conversations that went on around the table. When you talked, what what kind of conversation do you remember things they talked about? Did they

00:54:23.790 - 00:54:46.640

talk about current events or about the world situation? And I think they talked about that. But then they had a lot of fun just telling amusing stories. And and also I remember one of the talking about the students, they were entertained a lot and had students

00:54:46.640 - 00:55:09.530

up up at the house many times. They had teas for the students and receptions things on that order. How do you think that the administration and the faculty felt about women's students, the coeds. Do you think that they thought that they should be in college or

00:55:09.590 - 00:55:32.050

were they, they're looking for a husband or No, I think they knew that they were there for a purpose and getting an education, a well rounded education and I think they saw to it that everybody, not that education. Um There was some question about the honor

00:55:32.050 - 00:55:52.530

system at that time. While you were there about uh, some students cheating or uh, do you remember anything about that? Uh There was in the Crimson, there were articles about uh, the system. Uh six people were going to start printing the names of, of people who

00:55:52.530 - 00:56:15.100

had cheated on exams. They were going, no, I don't remember anything about that. I really passing probably was, I don't remember. I think that we were all uh I think the majority of the students were very conscientious about being on the honor system and taking our

00:56:15.100 - 00:56:47.470

exams. What did the professor leave? Why you took exams is that's what sometimes they did. Sometimes they were there. But you will put on your honor that you would be fair and not cheap. You can take the examinations. Um I think we've covered everything. Can you

00:56:47.470 - 00:57:10.200

think of any? I name some names and you give me your impressions of those people like John Dawson. He was the president while he was president when my father came here in 1913 and doctor they called him long John because he was so tall. But he

00:57:10.200 - 00:57:31.950

was another person that was a delightful charming person. And we were all were crazy about dr Dawson and when he went was called into World War One. That was the first time my father became the acting president of the college. So I remember I remember him

00:57:31.960 - 00:57:49.250

quite well. Oh so you do, what type of person was he? Was he reserved or No, He had a, he was a delightful personality and he was, had a sense of humor too. There was a lot of laughter in his eyes and on his face and

00:57:49.250 - 00:58:09.830

smiles and reading the students. He was another person that was very much interested in the students relationship with. Uh, there was one instance that your father was in chapel and he was talking that maybe that students should tip their hat when the professors or or the

00:58:09.840 - 00:58:33.720

president of the college walked by. Uh, but he was, that makes him sound a little um, I don't know what the word would be standoffish, but he was really not like that said, no. My father was just, he was warm and he loves, he loves the

00:58:33.730 - 00:58:53.740

students very, very much. In fact he grew up on a farm in north Carolina and the life was hard as he was growing up and he had to work as a child. Very hard on that on that bond and all of his brothers when you know

00:58:53.750 - 00:59:13.890

they went into the farming end of, but not my father and one excuse me, one other brother became a doctor and he was a doctor in Saratoga which was near Wilson north Carolina and he was known as up there as one of the finest country doctors

00:59:13.900 - 00:59:31.230

that there was in those states. And he went to the university of north Carolina and my father went and he wanted to teach. And I think that was the thing that uh he wanted to do from the time. He wanted not to farm, he wanted to

00:59:31.240 - 00:59:54.960

to teach and be in the influencing side of the with young people. Um how how do you think he discovered Howard College? Do you know? Did you ever hear how he decided to apply for a job at Howard? No, I don't remember. I think I had

00:59:54.960 - 01:00:15.980

several letters which he wrote in his own hand. He had the most beautiful handwriting of anybody I've ever known. And he uh had several letters that he wrote when he was a plane for the job. Do you still have them? I'm not sure that I, do

01:00:15.990 - 01:00:34.080

you see when I left here my mother was still living in the old home place and uh she died while I was still very busy in my work with Y. W. And U. S. I was in USo at the time. And so there was no chance

01:00:34.080 - 01:00:48.720

that I could stay here and go through things. And my brother and my aunt had to do all of that. And and as my brother said that he and his wife were so young at the time, they didn't know anything about anything being of value as

01:00:48.720 - 01:01:10.020

far as history was concerned. So I think a lot of it was disposed at that time. Well, I really do appreciate your talking with me. I I think we've gotten some valuable information and well, I surely hope so. I'm not. Can you think of anything else

01:01:10.020 - 01:01:27.650

you could tell me? Do you think of anything else you'd like to say about Howard College? Um, No, I just think that I would like to leave the impression that I knew it was an outstanding four year college and had a wonderful reputation over the United

01:01:27.650 - 01:01:53.250

States. I think that that I'm talking from the graduate. I mean, the students that graduated from there, I think most of them have that sense of community. Um Do you think it has changed now? You, you go over to the campus at Lakeshore pretty regularly. Samford

01:01:53.250 - 01:02:16.360

University over there real often. Do you think it's changed since it's moved? Do you think that uh the campus has a different feel now? What, You know? I don't, I don't think so, except for being larger in numbers, but as far as the students are concerned

01:02:16.360 - 01:02:34.850

and their attitude towards one another towards business. I think it remains pretty much the same for the spirit. I think the spirit is still there even with that. Well, they've got to put my team that's not quite winning yet. But I heard many, many people that

01:02:34.850 - 01:02:52.620

have gone back over there to the college that say the same thing that they are amazed at how many students come along and say hello, how are you speak to me in other words and I find it the same. So so you don't think the move

01:02:52.620 - 01:03:14.030

was detrimental to the college to know that it was it was the best thing for the college because it did bring in a lot of students and the as far as coming from far and near those students that come from out of States in that day

01:03:14.030 - 01:03:31.770

and time. Most of them that came there were just local people from the state of Alabama and now you see they're drawing in from all the status and you might say from the world. So there's a much more cosmopolitan and international flavor that you find over

01:03:31.770 - 01:03:51.640

there, you know, at the Sanford University. Well thank you for talking with me. Mr turK. I've really enjoyed this and I enjoyed talking with you too. If you can think of anything else you need to tell me about. Howard, we'll put it on the tape. Thank

01:03:51.640 - 01:04:22.040

you. Consider it an honor to have been included. That's Annabelle's name. Listen, we're just gonna add the story that you just told me on the tape about the, about your father. Okay, well my father was an excellent math teacher and he had his classes, his students

01:04:22.040 - 01:04:38.540

loved him and thought that he was an excellent teacher but he had a lot of humor about this and one day I remember one of this was before I was in school and heard him talk about it. But one of the young ladies was the name

01:04:38.540 - 01:04:57.900

of Miss Hollingsworth and he sent her up to the blackboard with a group of other students to do some math problems. And she was having a very difficult time in there. But anyway, that particular day when she finished her work on the blackboard, she got really

01:04:57.900 - 01:05:15.190

excited because she thought it was so good. And so she called out loud to him says Professor Professor Eagles come over here and see my figures. And my father walked over to us slowly and he started the head and went down to the foot. And then

01:05:15.190 - 01:05:20.970

the minute he spoke up and he said very nice. Miss Hollins was very nice.