00:00:03.120 - 00:00:24.610

this interview is being conducted in the office of dr Hudson Baggett at the Alabama baptist newspaper at 10 o'clock Tuesday november 12th, okay, dr Baggett. First of all, You were born in Coleman County and you were a professor of religion at Sanford for eight years. Uh

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before then you were pastor of first baptist church Florence and you hold a bachelor of divinity degree and a doctor of theology from southeastern. Could you give me Okay, okay, could you tell me something about your parents and your family background? Well, I grew up in

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the rural area of Alabama, in the small community, Arkadelphia, southwestern part of Cullman county. And my first view of being a christian and a baptist was from that perspective of a small boy. I became a christian when I was a junior boy and I saw the

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workings and sometimes the malfunctions of the baptist church which I attended. one thing I became acquainted with the democratic process as it is practiced in many small country churches in Alabama south and it gave me a perspective on what I have done since as a preacher

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and as a christian, what did you see as the malfunctions of the church at that time? one had to do with procedure and the lack of leadership, you know, it's not just what you do, but how you do it and many of the business meetings or

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conferences that they were called in that I attended emphasized to me the need of leadership and the lack of it in that respect that it was tended to be everybody's business and no no one in particular. And so I think we did well under the circumstances

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it was not orderly many times quite often would get out of hand as far as discussion very late. Were your parents leaders in the church? Yes. My father was a deacon and my grandfather, my mother's father was an artist leader in in the community and the

00:03:07.210 - 00:03:32.570

church. He was a rural mail carrier. And so I got, got a view of baptist doings from, from the church, but also from family. My own family members. Could you tell me something about your early education before you went to Howard? What high school did you

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attend? Well, I attended a rural high school, Cold Springs High School in Coleman County and before that I went to the secondary schools, my community where I lived at Arkadelphia and I view my early education as significant, but also as lacking in some of the essential

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studies courses that I really, so I really had to make up. They were lacking. You thought you were lacking when you went off to Howard? Yes. And and it's a matter of, you know, I just didn't have the educational background that later in graduate school, I

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needed, for example, several languages I had because I took french in college and english, but I was rather lacking in english and french and the other, but seeing in graduate study you have to, there's certain requisites and I didn't, did you feel that Howard didn't prepare

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you adequately? Well I think Howard did, but but where you have a deficiency, Like when I was teaching, one of the two of the things I've noticed more than anything else among students at Howard and Sanford was that they were inadequately prepared for reading and writing

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which are two of the basic things. And I mean by reading the deficiency and reading was not so much that I couldn't get over the material but they were not adept at understanding your reading comprehension. This is while you were teaching at stanford back, why did

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you come to Howard? Was there anyone in particular that influence you to go there? Well I suppose so but on in the broader sense I had an inclination and um desire to teach even before I became a preacher and I wanted to be a teacher I

00:06:01.060 - 00:06:30.630

thought. And so that feeling persisted. Then when I finished Southern seven here in Louisville after a rather arduous course. I've got a uh B. D. Bachelor of divinity and then I've got a master of Theology and then a doctor of Theology. And so my desire to

00:06:30.640 - 00:06:57.900

teach was still in me. And I got a chance after I in the past come to to howard college mainly from Major Davis President Major Davis might have known as a student. Uh huh. Tell me some things about Major Davis. How do people feel about him?

00:06:59.600 - 00:07:29.070

President major was what I'd call a stereotype of a strong leader and his background Shored up this image one he was really is called major Davis. He was a major in World War One, he was attorney general of Alabama. All these are authoritative. He, his looks

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and his thinking is bearing um really added to this image because he was you know, he looked like a leader. He walked in a kind of what I call a stately manor, more of a military walk swinging his arms and with his carrying his body. Well

00:08:01.820 - 00:08:22.210

how did you feel when coming from your rural background when you first came to Howard you remember how you felt? I felt that it was a rather long step and it turned out to be, but I found that Howard college And this was in the fall

00:08:22.210 - 00:08:57.150

of 1941. Found a very warm fellowship type school was small, 500 students or maybe six on a small campus with a quadrangle. You know and so and I was rather shine and introverted then and I and was not a ministerial student but I am not a

00:08:57.160 - 00:09:18.580

good bit with him. Uh well I don't know, I guess you know, I have known some of them and I don't know that it is, but I live off campus. So I really didn't get the flavor and I was the type person that I didn't was

00:09:18.590 - 00:09:44.890

not hunting glory. Well let's say in the student activities or extra curricular things it did turn out and I was later president of the junior class, Vice president of student body. And and then the very interesting thing happened when I was, I think it was when

00:09:44.900 - 00:10:06.780

I was, when I was president of junior class, I was elected over a young man who was quite an enthusiast for campus activities. And when the entre new came out with the pictures and his picture as as the president I was, I don't know, I never

00:10:06.780 - 00:10:21.040

didn't know what happened. But this is these are things that happened. You know, speaking of the entre knew, I mean to ask you, I had assumed that you had gone to a junior college first because you were in the afternoon 46 47 I didn't see you

00:10:21.040 - 00:10:42.950

in there. Well the reason for that is I went into service in World War Two when I was at stanford 1941 and I left the latter part of 1942. And you know that that was, was that part of the V 12 program? Well, the V 12

00:10:42.950 - 00:11:03.240

program was a navy program. They have several programs during the war V 12. It'd be one, I don't remember. And then they had the Air Force and I joined what was called enlisted reserve corps, which was an army program And this is a very interesting story

00:11:03.240 - 00:11:24.830

that I joined and we joined. I think 23 of us have joined. And with the promise from them we could finish school, I was within six weeks, I was called to active duty and this is, this is when I decided that propaganda was not the only

00:11:25.510 - 00:11:50.290

was not only used for the enemy, but friend. And so are you saying they went back on their word? Well, they didn't went back just keep it. And I found that that was rather rather typical of the military. That, that no, you know it, I don't

00:11:50.290 - 00:12:07.130

know why I didn't know that before, but that was a rather clear cut case where they told us that we had finished school And of course they, I'm sure in terms of there's a national emergency, but they knew that when we signed up, what was the

00:12:07.130 - 00:12:19.830

mood of the campus, was there a big difference between when you were there in 41 and then you came back while the war was still the latter part of the, well, it was about, it was over, I think when I came back, yes, there was quite

00:12:19.830 - 00:12:51.030

a difference. It was of course in 41, it was right after a depression 45, you know, it was quite different. And because experiences in the military, I was in the infantry, where were you? I was in, in the United States, I was in texas and then

00:12:51.030 - 00:13:21.790

I was in uh north Africa and italy did a lot of the same students come back as you did that were, there, were there a lot that were killed? Okay, well, when you were a religion major, I was when I came back history, um but I

00:13:21.800 - 00:13:47.870

did, I made it in religion, but that's an interesting thing to, of course, now they have what they call the pre seminary course, which is fine, it's broader. I would not measure in religion again, I don't think, well, I just, I think being a preacher that

00:13:47.870 - 00:14:19.310

you need a broadness now, howard had that because the religion department was not that narrow, you know, uh what would you suggest a person? Well, maybe some related field like english speech, which is very closely related. Well, you ended up in a field of communications, but

00:14:19.320 - 00:14:37.110

you weren't involved with the crime scene. Know, is there a reason for that? You just weren't interested in it? Well, I was not interested in uh in it. I've always been interested in newspapers. You know, I've I've seen that in retrospect, I'm an avid reader of

00:14:37.120 - 00:14:59.200

newspapers and, you know, I just, I just have a curiosity and, you know, no, so on, but I did not really think of that as being significant then. I think it really was because it, but I've had no what I'd call formal interest in journalism, I

00:14:59.210 - 00:15:23.420

had done if I had listed the things that I wanted to check on or go into probably not have listed being an editor and certainly not an editor of the paper, But one thing that happened when I was, went into graduate work at Southern, I made

00:15:23.420 - 00:15:46.980

it in politics, which is preparation delivery of sermons, which is tied into that. And also I had thought and probably if I had it to do over, I would do this going to Northwestern University and getting a doctor speech so that you know, my interest has

00:15:46.990 - 00:16:06.870

been in in communication and still is I think, well, I came across a picture in the entree knew that made it appears that the editors were voted on, they were selected by the student body. What was the reason for that? I'm not sure that that was

00:16:06.870 - 00:16:30.550

the case. I think it was, I don't know, but I don't know why they did that. Of course it was prestigious, rather prestigious position. Was the newspaper then thought of his, I mean, was it well thought of on campus noon. I think even more than now

00:16:30.550 - 00:17:00.900

though, I don't, I can't evaluate now because I don't see the, but some of the top students we had were editors back in those days, whether they were going into communications or not, they were just more of, seems to be better students academically. Um, but I

00:17:00.900 - 00:17:20.540

will also say that I think it would have enhanced that interest and ability had I been interested in it and got the training experience and have been much better for me. Well you were involved in a P. O. Could you tell me some things about what

00:17:20.880 - 00:17:36.310

was like back then? I'm in A P. O. Now. Yeah, I really didn't know much about it. The thing that the main thing that I guess I got on a P. O. Was I played ball with them. I think you know, a hero, that's about my

00:17:36.320 - 00:17:59.950

you know, it was a very loose connection. It wasn't it wasn't as much of a fraternal, you know, I knew some other people and I think what I'm saying reflects the time, but it also reflects mine. What I view now is kind of a non involvement

00:17:59.960 - 00:18:21.180

I was not looking for. It's interesting that I got as involved as I am in the baptist work with a feeling that I have and I still have that, I just don't being a official or on the board. See this doesn't have the meaning to me

00:18:21.190 - 00:18:39.280

that there's a lot of people. How did you view the fraternities and sororities? Well, I had a lot of friends in them and and I was also a member. I don't believe I had a full fledged member. I think I have pledged to signal view and

00:18:39.290 - 00:18:56.890

but I, you know, I got along with them, but for example, I'm not I was not a big socialite. I didn't used to play for dances when I've been country western band, but I never danced. I just didn't get and that's about all they did, you

00:18:56.890 - 00:19:18.170

know, they did have dances on campus back then? Well you know I'm not sure they had most of them were off campus you know cascade plunge the place out there near. And I remember that at least one time they listed me as attending a dance, my

00:19:18.180 - 00:19:41.180

preacher friends were coming, I don't think they thought and I don't think I was a ministerial student but they used to call me deacon because you know it was but you don't remember that dancing was was against the rules back then. It was against the rules.

00:19:41.190 - 00:19:59.480

You know it was even more so I think now you know everybody did it in some way that they wanted to but it was you know that's it was kind of that way officially they didn't fool with it. You know it was kind of like it

00:19:59.480 - 00:20:20.580

is now I think I came across some pictures of H day one was H day stunt where they had guys dressed up as girls and that kind of thing. That must have been howard day was it was yes it was and we had skips and you

00:20:20.580 - 00:20:44.640

know the festival type thing. That wasn't just for the religion. Oh this was if I recall this was a skip that you're talking about the woman, this wedding was skipped by the junior class and it was I don't remember the but that's what it was that

00:20:44.640 - 00:21:08.730

was a woman sweating and okay. Um There were also some pictures of the dorms. Um Did you feel comfortable living in them? They didn't, they didn't seem okay. That's right. You said you didn't, where did you live at? I live with my sister most of the

00:21:08.740 - 00:21:30.710

time she and her husband wouldn't my own. And so how did you get back and forth to campus? Well some by the streetcar and later I think when I came back after World War Two had a car. But first I wrote a streetcar. Did a lot

00:21:30.710 - 00:22:02.070

of the students, How long did it take you? A good distance? No. And then you just stay there most of the day or? Yes. And I worked at jobs off campus and campus. Well various places they had one they call the # House. MS stevens was

00:22:02.070 - 00:22:28.820

right there, close to the main building and then just little restaurants around there. In short order sandwiches. I didn't eat big meal or anything. It's hot dog, hamburger. Okay. Um even though you weren't in the dorms, you might might know some of what I'm fixing to

00:22:28.820 - 00:22:53.970

ask you about the crow's nest and inflation hall. Well I don't know that but I know inflation Hawley, that was just the name of a dormitory. Now the crow's nest was I don't recall that now. So much about them. Okay. Do you remember who johnny is,

00:22:54.490 - 00:23:08.020

johnny was. There was a picture of a black woman that must have been, she must have been well known on campus was a pretty big picture and I can't remember what the caption was under it? She was made I guess I remember her name but I

00:23:08.020 - 00:23:31.790

don't remember much about them. Okay. Uh do you recall how many non Baptists there were on campus while you were there? Was there a good number or I didn't know that. Yes, there were some but I didn't think that the percentage was less than did you

00:23:31.790 - 00:23:55.620

know any non baptist at all? Yes I did. What was the sentiment of the students towards people who were there that were non baptist? That was not and I'm judging this this was not an issue different. Really? Okay. Um what was were there any blacks on

00:23:55.620 - 00:24:21.330

campus at that time? You know the only blacks were one man said he had to bring them across his work. Yeah. No. Did you send you told me the other day you were telling me some things about your son. Did he go to stanford undergraduate? Did

00:24:21.330 - 00:24:44.520

you want him to go there? I wanted him to but he grew up virtually on the campus and you know, he want to go somewhere else. Yes I'm really wanting and later I want him to go to law school Cumberland but he didn't he had good

00:24:44.530 - 00:25:14.840

grades and everything but he and they didn't show that much interest in him. You know as they don't you know they're usually they have to be very selective and with the tape do you think Sanford is? I don't know are you talking about Cumberland? Right, mainly

00:25:18.070 - 00:25:37.510

I think Sanford is rather selective in their students and have you know a cut off from the A. C. T. And whatever. Tell me about the move from East Lake. How did you, how did you feel about that personally? Well when I heard about it, when

00:25:37.510 - 00:25:59.480

I was a student out there before move actually took place which About 1957. But I thought when they first started and the first one thing that they did they talked about and I think tried to acquire what is now the little country club golf course in

00:25:59.480 - 00:26:27.880

that land you know and and I thought that would have been very desirable and good. Well because of one thing the beauty of the topography of the land and also because it would have been in the east east Lake area. Um but I think the cinema,

00:26:27.890 - 00:26:55.340

you know moving, I thought it would change the and whole situation and I think it did but mainly for for good you know for improvement though I didn't think of it that way. And there was a good bit of sentiments you know about because it was

00:26:55.770 - 00:27:21.220

a dramatic change. You're talking about 20 miles cross, why why was there such a great need to move simply because the buildings will be coming over? Well that and also the the there was not enough property. one thing they had, Howard College got in in debt.

00:27:21.420 - 00:27:43.880

They were in very bad financial shape and they sold off some of the property. When was this? That was In the late 30s. And when Major Davis came, he came in 1939 as president. And when he came for several months, they did not have money to

00:27:43.890 - 00:28:05.500

pay the faculty. They didn't pay major Davis salary. And I'm reflecting what he said, I heard him tell his stories every day. So, you know, they didn't, so what they did being in a type, they sold off the land, they had some of it around and,

00:28:05.500 - 00:28:25.030

and they couldn't back. So it was, they were him then. Did people then build, well, how did, how did major Davis make it without any income? Or do you think he was just, that's a phenomenal story. I don't, I can't tell you the full story, but

00:28:26.340 - 00:28:51.240

he was one Thing, this story is the remarkable story of a man who was a motivator. He's one of the most determined men I've ever known. And as a matter of fact, and this is a pretty well documented story for several meetings of the trustees. Every

00:28:51.260 - 00:29:31.970

trustee was against the move and he persuaded, you know, do it, thank you, casualties were major Davis was, and I would say it's just my evaluation that Major Davis was one of the most pivotal personalities in the history of, of Sanford University because howard College that

00:29:31.970 - 00:29:58.700

it was then and now university really hung in the balance. Um, the late thirties To the early 40s. In other words, you think it might not have made it? Well, that's right. It it could have collapsed financially. Uh, and I think not only major Davis but

00:29:58.710 - 00:30:30.210

the circumstances and the things that happened going from a depression that was very severe economically. Two more of an economy based on wartime and all of this. And of course, another thing that made major Davis a very strong leader was the fact that he was and

00:30:30.210 - 00:31:01.740

was thought of and was proud of being, he was a military and patriotic. It was really a patriarch, you know, and very, and I do not feel personally that That one could overemphasize the importance of his presidency for 19 years of marriage college samples, you mentioned

00:31:01.740 - 00:31:21.120

that you said something earlier that made it sound like you would have preferred Howard to at least have stayed in the East Lake area. Was that simply so you wouldn't lose. Oh, I think that just reflected my coziness with it. I think if they had remained

00:31:21.120 - 00:31:43.670

there, it would have been a mistake comparing what they have done, you know, and Major Davis had the vision to see that it would have been easier for him to just, and when I first went to Herod College, they had White watched the building and they

00:31:43.670 - 00:32:18.690

look, you know, to me, they look great, but they were very old. They had not been properly significant historically of the major Davis presidency being one of the key things that happened in the history of, I don't think there's any question that why, why was it

00:32:18.690 - 00:32:38.440

decided not to move campus over Roebuck? You seem to think that was ideal. Well, there there were some complications in acquiring the property. I don't know the details, but they couldn't get the property they wanted it. But some way they got a better deal on the

00:32:38.450 - 00:33:01.430

property in homework. And it turned out to be it was a stroke of genius. But at the time it wasn't looked upon his name. Well, it wasn't by me and I think by, I think again that this emphasizes the strong leadership of major Davis, that he

00:33:01.430 - 00:33:26.880

was at one time almost alone in feeling doing and it really did not. What do you mean feathers in his cap at the time? You know, I mean, it wouldn't, it was, I looked at it on his part of being a totally unselfish because it was,

00:33:27.660 - 00:33:55.730

there was strong opposition officially to it. But he did it. And uh, I think how do you think he managed to convince people? Well, he was, he was a powerful man, great persuader publicly and privately he was, he was a man who had little or no

00:33:55.740 - 00:34:19.020

fear of people. He was not a little person. He was an outspoken person. He was an opinionated person, but he was not little in the sense leaving people out. And if for example, if a group of pastors in calhoun county had some complaints, they wanted him

00:34:19.020 - 00:34:44.970

to appear, he did, I don't want to kill, he would go gladly, this didn't fake it. He was an attorney. He was then, he was at home in the courtroom and had been the attorney general of Alabama and I think he was, was um, um, very

00:34:44.970 - 00:35:05.780

suitable for the time. I don't think anybody could have been. Why do you think that he maybe didn't pursue his political career but instead came back to be a college president? Well, he was persuaded to do so by some friends here in Birmingham frank. Sanford was

00:35:05.790 - 00:35:29.070

one of them, Crawford johnson, you know, some of the, and, and they felt like probably that major Davis were the only one who could save the college and they were probably right. So then he just served out his term as attorney general and um, but he

00:35:29.070 - 00:35:53.740

was and he was really not the type of person that would fail in anything. He was just, and he was determined and strong in his and he was a leader, He was, he knew how to rally the troops well, you knew him then while you were

00:35:53.740 - 00:36:13.750

a student and then you obviously knew him, got to know him well, years later, yes, he was a very good friend, but he was this kind of fellow, he was with all of his honors and whatever he's done. He was down to earth and he would

00:36:13.760 - 00:36:35.700

tell you, you know I wanted to be a missionary for example, I kept talking that he was talking to me about coming to teach and he just put to me some real probing specific questions. He said For example, do you want to go to Argentina or

00:36:35.700 - 00:36:55.690

somewhere and teach four or 5 people or 10 people? Have you ever thought about that? Well I have but I don't know, I may not want that. So I don't really think you do. I think you're dreaming and it turned out that he probably knew me

00:36:55.700 - 00:37:23.310

better than myself but he was in one region. I appreciate him was that he was he was my friend. I feel when you know I really shied away from being a friend of a the person who was president of college. But it it was different than

00:37:23.320 - 00:37:48.190

in the sense that school was smaller. The students knew the president more. It was more accessible to them for whatever reason. But a part of it was major Davis that was his, you know, he was personable and you hear President now talk about that we honor

00:37:48.190 - 00:38:10.160

the students say I don't see many of them do what major Davis did and I don't mean that as criticism of them. It's a different day, I know that but but I am very strong and believing that if a leader just like with me Alabama baptist,

00:38:10.780 - 00:38:29.280

if I can't be available to them person on the lowest front. You know, I want to be in a place of leadership. So you knew major Davis pretty well then while you were student and I appreciate him. You know, I didn't I felt like I could

00:38:29.290 - 00:38:56.690

talk with him. I probably did. I don't know, I don't remember any right. What years did you teach at? Sanford came in 1958. I lived in 1966 when I was about 8.5 years and I enjoyed it very much. It was very meaningful to me. Yeah, was

00:38:56.700 - 00:39:28.110

one of the most profitable chapters of learning for me. Well it there's several reasons I was very closely connected with the ministerial students because of my interest in preaching, taught preaching. And I was um faculty advisor to H Day program and to the ministerial association much

00:39:28.110 - 00:39:58.970

of my time there and I got a chance to relate to preachers and others in classes. And it it thank you hone some of my abilities teaching, which I had. But you know, I've been in the past, I've been teaching is monologue, logical teaching and more

00:39:58.980 - 00:40:24.600

biological dialogue. So I learned a great deal about the dialogue. I taught psychology of religion, preaching and the basic courses in old and new testament. And also I learned a great deal about the bible teaching those survey courses, you know some of the other and I

00:40:24.600 - 00:40:54.170

learned more about the principles preaching and the philosophy ministry and can well, there there was not more than a decade between the time then that you attended Howard as a student and then you taught there, what did you see as the major differences? Well, of course

00:40:54.170 - 00:41:17.390

they were the early years when I came back to teach on the campus and it was some of the changes were revolutionary. What was that? Well, uh of course the physical plant was different. And when I first came to teach, my office was just a corner

00:41:17.390 - 00:41:45.980

in the library building and they built the, you know, the new chapel and all that. And and there was a change of mood and uh and I think, you know that um it's hard to assess the, but in my opinion there has been, and this is

00:41:45.980 - 00:42:06.470

not just Sanford, I think Sanford has stayed closer to the denomination, but but there is a tendency in schools, you know, to go more away from the denominational thing. One thing you have more non baptist students and even baptist students are not that related to the,

00:42:07.930 - 00:42:24.470

it's a rarity, you know, I wasn't when I was there because one, you know, I was not a preacher when I first started, I didn't know much about the denomination, I was on the other end of it, you know, and and I mean that I was

00:42:24.470 - 00:42:47.290

only the boondocks I came from, so the denominational structure and that kind of thing has never been a vital part of me because I didn't know much about it, and I really didn't care that much, you know, there's a student and until I I came to

00:42:47.300 - 00:43:06.750

stanford to teach and I began to do a little more about the denomination, had opportunities to I was invited when I was at stanford to be sector of evangelism for the state. But I turned that down, you know, I thought about it and but I didn't

00:43:06.750 - 00:43:32.890

really that was my thing. So then I was never really thought of as a leading candidate at all to be editor. I really had no funding, you've never cared about, I really didn't care about it. And and it was very interesting how I got in here,

00:43:32.900 - 00:43:58.510

you know, I was a dark horse, I guess, candidate, but a friend of mine who was on the board, one of my closest friends then and now, but he was pushing somebody else. He was committed. So it worked out that this particular person that he was

00:43:59.480 - 00:44:19.440

pushing and he and I never discussed it, but he knew I didn't an interesting, so when it turned out that this other candidate really couldn't be elected, you know, he couldn't get that vote. So, my friend, I'm sure I never discussed it with him, but I'm

00:44:19.440 - 00:44:40.690

sure he was for me and and the interesting thing about what happened, and it's it's not a very certainly not a typical story but but the committee, the search committee never talked with me about being talked to me about any of you never had an interview

00:44:40.690 - 00:45:09.660

with me and when they met to elect an editor, they elected me and call me and then without any interview. Well I don't know I have some ideas but I but then I'll mention those many that I think they were but it was really ridiculous. My

00:45:09.660 - 00:45:38.110

friend though on the comedian did talk to me either maybe the day before they met and he asked me I was going I was gonna take a sabbatical leave and I'm going to Bangkok, the interim pastor of calvary baptist church for a year. I had the

00:45:38.120 - 00:45:58.760

charge to go to teacher college in Hong kong or that and I'd already Plan, we were making our plans to go, this was in the spring of 1966. And he called and he said well have you made your plan? I said yes, I just talked to

00:45:58.770 - 00:46:19.270

Foreign Mission Board represented yesterday and we get tickets. And he said well could you put that off while I said well you know we had elected but he was trying to tell me I think that and he said well you're you're gonna be in town tomorrow.

00:46:19.270 - 00:46:36.040

And I said well I plan to have a classic and he said well would you be available on the plan. And I said well so anyway, he then he called me that day and when we come down where they were, these officers were on the south

00:46:36.040 - 00:46:55.190

side and they asked me to come down there and they had elected me and told me in that meeting. So you know, it's, it's a funny story in a way. And it and another thing was unusual about it. I told him that day that I would

00:46:55.190 - 00:47:09.940

accept the job which I rarely would ever do anything. You know, one of my friends found out I'd let him know. He said, I can't, I can't believe she did that. She said, I'm glad you're gonna be it. But said, I can't believe you would make

00:47:09.940 - 00:47:31.000

up your mind as soon. So, but that's the way it was. And I mean I was in it and that was it. And as I look back on it, I I don't see how I could, I've done it really somehow that I got off the ground

00:47:31.000 - 00:47:59.240

with but it's you know, it's been spirit. It was so different from anything that is interesting. Um going back a little bit, he said that your office was a corner in the library. Do you mean that literally was well it was just a little so you

00:47:59.240 - 00:48:25.760

taught over in the chapel and then your office. Well we didn't have the chapel in. I'm trying to think where the classrooms were back then. I don't know when the chapel was built, mm hmm. I don't believe we have. Well, I think there was I think

00:48:25.760 - 00:48:49.320

the classrooms we used were in the library on one of the floors. I believe that I'm almost positive. What other changes did you see between the time you were a student said something? Well, it's, you know, the the number of students have more students and then

00:48:49.320 - 00:49:15.870

the influx of, well, I think it's just a different mood or different. And by the way, I came to teach the same year that dr Ryan came. And so that was a change. It was quite a change from major Davis. I don't remember all of it.

00:49:17.300 - 00:49:39.010

Dr wright was a different kind of person. I liked him and got along with him fine and and really became a good friend of his But was it hard for him? At first? I'm sure after, I'm sure it was, you know, and he was kind of

00:49:39.010 - 00:50:05.150

a surprise. Yes, I didn't I couldn't figure that, you know, he was but he was head of the baptist Foundation, which was just very little in, you know, I know when I first met dr Ryan, he came to that church in Florence 1st Baptist Church and

00:50:05.920 - 00:50:36.420

that happens the more I could Secretary, when would that have been 56 7. And I came to Sanford In the fall of 58, but they had been talking with me a good wine and but I again and I guess it's just typical of me, the, you

00:50:36.420 - 00:50:59.040

know, going, you know, the jobs I had was rather traumatic leaving like Florence I haven't really had. And I had a difficult adjustment to teaching after being a preacher. You know, it was kind of a drop psychologically one thing, but I had a good church and

00:50:59.580 - 00:51:23.530

people were, you know, it was rather more prestigious going around, preaching is a college professor. They didn't know whether it was from Montgomery or well, going back to dr right, why do you think he was chosen if he was such an unlikely candidate? He was I

00:51:23.540 - 00:51:45.650

think I'm correct in saying Doctor Dr Reid, who was the State of Thinking Secretary, this was his choice and Doctor I was his choice and the choice of some of the Trustees. I think that's the way and that's kind of the way things go. So it's

00:51:45.650 - 00:52:02.520

pretty much after the well, the Trustees. And and like, for example, in my coming the editor, you know, it was not like it was accidental or anything because the chairman of the board at that time, a man named Roy johnson, Well, I've been in the past

00:52:02.520 - 00:52:18.590

in Central Park, he was a deacon. And he and I have got to be a good friend. We've never discussed anything, but I think, you know, you you have to have the votes when you come down. And if you and I think that's what happened in

00:52:18.590 - 00:52:34.530

my case that I had him and I had a friend, you know, it was for somebody else. And when everybody came down and maybe two on the committee really didn't know me that well, good money on the board. So it's basically a matter of whether you

00:52:34.530 - 00:52:57.640

know them, I know them and they know you, and if they feel, you know, that's just the way you do it. So what may look like an incidental thing in my describing the way they elected me was, I think very happy hazard. But it in in

00:52:57.640 - 00:53:19.330

an essence, I happen to be one of the candidates that have to vote in that committee. And I mean by that if they were voting for me with two other people, they would have voted for me better. And then the other say, I think they had

00:53:19.340 - 00:53:45.670

five on the committee. So two of them, I had three strong votes and maybe the two went along with them and they had the majority, you know, and I don't know, I've never asked him what happened Davis said the unanimous No, but I think this is

00:53:45.670 - 00:54:08.200

a commentary on a number of things. A lot of people in the ministry and and denominational work do not understand the nature of the way we operate and and and I have kind of made it my responsibility to understand that mr it's kind of a political

00:54:08.210 - 00:54:32.370

thing, I know that and I've accepted that. I have never run for anything, I just can't do that. So you don't like politics? I really don't like it, but it is a reality and I don't I do not necessarily shrink from it. Like I was on

00:54:32.370 - 00:55:01.520

the committee to get a president here at Sanford and and you know, I know how these things operate. I felt the committee operated in a wonderful way. We didn't have any problems. This is a would be doctor and he was a dark horse, you know, I've

00:55:01.520 - 00:55:27.170

never heard of him, No one on the Committee. So that would have been unusual then for him to have been. But but a lot of lot of that kind of thing, it does is unusual and like for example churches calling preachers, I used to talk about

00:55:27.180 - 00:55:49.140

this good bit with preachers, if you have what I call a hound dog mouth, you know, I mean, you you've got a good speaking voice, protect yourself the power of the platform, I would say it's one of the key things and you're getting back their communication

00:55:54.140 - 00:56:18.410

overall in Britain and a lot of the what we do in politics and in religious politics is yes, what I call hot knobbing, you know, and I've always done pretty well with that, I'm at home and then I don't I'm not afraid to talk to people

00:56:19.060 - 00:56:51.600

are afraid to talk to me and that's part of the game. So, and I guess you'd say it's kind of a self selling thing, But I think I would have appreciated an opportunity to sit down with the committee when I came here. I might have talked

00:56:51.600 - 00:56:55.690

myself out of it. Talk them out of it.