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This is the oral history interview with Miss Mabel Willoughby. Um My name is LS King, it's november the 15th, 1985 we're at Miss Willoughby's home and date them. Um Just briefly, would you like to give me a little of your background information where you grew up

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and and how you got to Howard um if there are any influential people who influenced your decision to come to Howard and how you made that decision related with Houston County. I was born in the Crosby community of very fine christian parents. Mr and mrs Sidney

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Willoughby. They were both descendants of the early pioneers of this country. They immigrated from England in the 17th and early part of the 18th centuries and just as as their forebears were, my parents also were large landowners. My father also had interest in farming and cotton,

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ginny and forestry and neighbors store business and in addition he operated a country store and for several years he was the postmaster of Crosby, a large community across the Alabama. My parents were very staunch baptist. My father served as a deacon in the church for many

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years and as sunday school superintendent also and of course I became a baptist because of my parents belief and for many years of my life, I had served as a sensitive teacher in the baptist church, also in other capacities in the churches. For my first year

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in high school, I went to enterprise Alabama to live with my older sister who was married and lived there at that time, but you probably would like to know why I went to Howard College. Well during the summer of 1921 James Trant who was an instructor

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at Howard College, taught a Sunday school course at the Baptist Church in Crosby. Although I was scheduled to enter Jackson in the fall in about three weeks from that time, tramp persuaded my parents to let me go to Howard instead. They very reluctantly agreed. But I

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have always been glad that that choice was made. That decision was made and that is why I happened to go to how it caught. Were there? Were you the what um did you fall in line in your family like your with your brothers and sisters? Where

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were you? Oh I was in the middle of lower group. I was wondering if like you were the first to go to college. No, no, no, no, no, no. The old ones have gone also. Most of the older ones my older sister married before she finished.

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Well um what how did the events um during the time that you were growing up during um the world wars, How did they have any um how do they affect your uh your thoughts or your the way did they have any any direct effect on on,

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on you? Um what you became your son? Trying to ask? I was so young at the time of World War One even though I was in high school and enterprise. I did go at a young age. Um I don't recall much about it except that I

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I felt that war was so horrible and I have all my life had an aversion to war. I realized then that the importance of frugality I learned that one must make sacrifices during times of war, both personally and for his country. And I have always been

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deeply loyal to my country. I've left it and I've appreciated what our country has meant to us. And and the purpose professorship was founded. I wonder if um um my generation, not not having been through anything like that at that. Just if that strengthens your your

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having lived through wars, if that strengthens your your loyalty to your country, If I in my generation. Yes, yes, indeed. Yes, indeed it did because in World War Two, which I will tell you about later in this interview. But in World War Two I went to

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florida, I was only the absence from Howard and I went to florida to organize a hyper at page field florida for the uh air base there. I really have a very deep loyalty to my country and I do belong to the daughters of the american revolution.

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And of course, of course that also further reflects my interest in in my country. I think we'll tell me um a little bit about when you first got to Howard your thoughts as a freshman where you lost or your first impressions. Well, let me say that

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in many ways I was I was just wholly unprepared for like in the city of Birmingham, I was I was very naive, I was very tended but I do want to say that the christian principles that had been taught to me in my home and a

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strong faith in God helped me considerably during those early days, those first days at Howard also, I want to say this that Mr Trant, who by the way later married my sister and became my brother in law. Mr Trant was very helpful to me in introducing

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me to the right kind of people at Howard and among the ones that he introduced me to some of the best friends that I ever had and of course that helped me considerably, but I was not lonely for too long because I assumed they friends and

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had a wonderful time. Well you were pretty involved in the campus. Mhm. Um Just in different activities and stuff, aren't you? Yes. Yes, I pause um uh from my freshman year, let me say this, that that two of the friends that I formed that first year

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and soon after I went to Howard where Florence passed. Miss Florence passed one of the outstanding alumni guests of the college and Willie you Kirk also became very good friends and um they helped me in so many ways they they told me first of all the

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importance of making good grades and believe me I studied, I wanted to make good grades and and 11 thing they told me was that if I would study real hard that they felt that there was quite an honor in store for me. And so I did,

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I stood it hard and after band of the first semester, I fortunately had an average, I believe because now I hope that all these statistics that I'm going to give you are accurate. You know, sometimes time just play hopscotch with your memory, but I think this

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is correct. My average was plus. And so I was then invited to become a member of a local sorority and I believe that the name of that sorority, if I remember productive was Delta kappa psI. Anyway, it was a local sorority, which later became find new

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sorority Nationals, Find new sorority. Uh that was one of the first honors that I received. And also in high school I had been quite active in dramatics and had taken leads in plays. And so of course this interest was continued in college and Florence passed was

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an older student. She was a senior when I was a freshman Florence was directing and she had had experienced something in teaching and directing before she came to Howard, but she was directing the plays and uh, I took in the first play that I was in,

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was called Mr bob and I believe I had believed in that play and it was a very successful play. Uh, and I also had, I was in other places and they were taken to Montevallo and other places over the state to be shown. So, we had

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a wonderful time in the drama department and of course there were, there were other activities and honors to um during my freshman year, there were literary societies on the campus. Uh they were the old Shelburne Literary Society and the Pulliam literary society. Incidentally, the minutes of

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those societies should be in Sanford Library. They were when I left, I don't know if they're still there, but they were when I left and they were interesting, they were affected the life of Howard in many ways, but and I belong to both of them. I

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don't know why I belong both societies what I did, and but at the end of that year, I believe those societies were abolished either at the end of that year or the next year, those societies were abolished now, of course, um I belong to the B.

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S. You, I'm not sure just when that was organized, but I did belong to the B. S. You. That was a baptist student union, which I believe is still in existence there and and then I was in the glee club and I recall so well that

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I sang in the Combined League clubs celebrating the sesquicentennial of Birmingham, That was in 1926, I believe, 1926, Perhaps 1925. But it was that old Avondale Park, that celebration bobs and then uh also uh have different offices at different times. I was editor of the senior

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editor, Editor of the senior class of Crimson and editor of the senior class for the afternoon. And um, I don't remember, I don't remember all the things I was. But uh, do you want all these owners now while we're talking about them? All right. I will

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say that one of the nicest honors. I think that I had at Howard was being tapped into high patient honor society and perhaps you'd like to know something about the organization of high patient. Well, the students always had to attend chapel. Chapel was held on the

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second floor of montague hall and we have signed places and that role was always called. Um on one occasion we were asked to meet out on the campus for chapel and not in money and not in the main building. And of course none of us knew

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why and I want to say that I think the organization of hype was one of the best kept secrets how I'd ever had. But on this particular occasion, uh, we were centered on campus and the piano was moved out on the campus and there was music,

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the music. Well, when we were all out on the campus seated on the grass. Here came Professor Burns and also six girls dressed in white with beautiful yellow for sergeant and Dean Burns explained the organization of high honor society and uh, they gave the qualifications required

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for membership in high patient. The fact that they had chosen six of the senior girls to that they thought worthy of membership. Now the qualifications, as I recall were leadership activities and student affairs scholarship and promise of future usefulness. Um the faculty had Children, those six

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girls, um each of those girls in turn had an extra Kasich in their hands and each intern went out among the students, wandered in and out among the students until she found the girl that she was supposed to tap for membership. And um, it was just

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lovely the way it was conducted and they kept wandering in and out where five girls were tapped and I wasn't a moment, of course my name beginning with w was always the last to be considered. I always sat at the back of the classroom because my

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name began with a w. Well I kept wondering, oh, am I going to make it? I don't. And I recall so well that Lucille vera was the one who tapped me that their last one and I assure you that the applause that followed just thrill my

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soul and I shall always remember that time because I thought it was an honor much to be desired. Uh and then an even greater honor perhaps came to me that was during my junior year. You see that we were tapped. Then in my senior year at

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graduation I was awarded the high patient loving cup. The high patient loving couple was given each year to the outstanding senior And I received much to my joy and surprise I did. And then also during my senior year uh during my junior year I was elected

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president called the C. A. And I was sent as a delegate to Blue ridge north Carolina as a delegate for that. And also I received 11 cup as president of Y. M. C. A. I have those loving cups here in case you would like to see

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them. And I have other things here that have been in my position which I left in my home. You know before going to florida and being washed away by the hurricane. There were other honors too. I think I don't recall all of them. Well I was

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just briefly if you if you I was thinking about something when you were talking then um you you mentioned that that chapel was required. Um how do you remember how often it was held was I believe I believe that it was three days a week. Then

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you had to go all three days a week. Oh yes we were required to go three days a week and I will have to tell you some very interesting experiences that happened in chapel. At least one. I would like to relay. Well I do want to

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say this that the faculty always sat on the, on the platform on the stage. And uh sometimes we had very interesting speakers and I remember that George Washington carver was one of our speakers and I remember him so well and so kindly. And then this story

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was told on professor egos. Professor Eagles was such a dear, lovable professor. But this story was told on him. This was before my day, but it was told on him that when he first went to Howard as a green instructor, fresh out of college and had

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to sit on the stage with the faculty, that the president who was dr montague at that time, call on him to lead in prayer and he was quite inexperienced at public prayer, but he tried and he wandered around and could not find an appropriate ending to

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his prayer. And so finally dr montague who was said not to be too patient. A man jerked him by the shirt tail and said, Eagles, for God's sake, sit down. You wanted all over the face of the universe. What did y'all do? That was before my

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day. I was not there. I'm sure that it was not hurt control. I'm sure that that was not heard by the students. But Professor has always told it on himself, but we did get some some good instruction, I think in chapel and it was good discipline

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for the child for their students. Do you remember if there were any kind of at one time, I don't know when it was abolished, there were you were required to go to church for y'all, I don't recall that we were required to go to church. Perhaps

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we were, but I just don't recall that. I do recall that as a student that the boys and girls had a summer school, a mixed some school class and it met in montague hall and we all went because we enjoyed it and then we enjoyed being

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together. We enjoyed meeting our boyfriends, you know, at some school. But that was that was the one thing I think that we were expected to attend was soon as, I don't recall that we were required to go to church. We were expected to and we did

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go, we went to Rahimah Rahimah and I was there for many years and singing club there. Dr chapman was head of the religious education department at that time. And dr chapman was a, a real southern gentleman. He was the essence of gentility. He was, he was

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a fine person and he took an interest in his students. He had a very splendid course, I think on the new testament and we enjoyed it. I think most of the students took his courses. What were you just talking about going to sunday school with the

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guys and the girls being together. Was was that what was the relationship like between the guys and the girls? Were, was it pretty mixed. Um It was most, most of the organizations and stuff. And that was purely for the dormitory, boys and girls and we usually

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did not sit together. The girls sat the girls that because it was crowded and usually two girls had to sit on one of those little thieves. And and the boys did too sometimes. So we hardly ever sat together on the campus on the campus. And I

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just I was just wondering what the relationship was like between the guys and the girls. Oh my when at that time I think I would have to tell you this at that time. You know the campus was very small but there was on the campus on

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an oak tree that was planted was set out by dr Sherman dr Sherman was one of the first presidents I believe. Of Howard after it was moved to Birmingham and he set out that tree. Well it was a beautiful big boat tree. And Sherman oaks served

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as a meeting place for the boys and girls. Also as a place for conversation and in some cases even the case for court for studying. But mainly I think it was a place for courting and any student who was there back then will remember Sherman oaks?

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I've heard I've heard of Sherman. Well this is our um attitudes, my relationships. I was wondering what the the attitudes were was like towards the, towards the Greeks on the campus were, y'all fairly well accepted. Yes, yes, we were accepted at that time. I think perhaps

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as you know, the preacher boys never fully approved perhaps of the greek organizations. Um, I want to see if I may my opinion now at this stage of life about Greeks, I think the fraternities and sororities offered a wonderful opportunity to those students who were chosen

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to become members. They enjoyed a better social life. I think they were encouraged to have the grades. Many of them did not, and some dropped out. I had to drop out because of that. Ah, the ideas of those sororities and fraternities I think were very high

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indeed. I'm sure the one that I belong to find you was. Um, the ideas were extremely high and we were expected to make good grades. However, in looking back over the situation, I think that perhaps the, the trauma of those students who were, who aspired to

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become members and who were not accepted, I think that may have left emotional scars on some and they were never quite able to forget those stars and to overcome them in life and therefore, I'm not too sure. I'm not too sure of the rightness of Greece

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organizations. I enjoyed mine thoroughly. I loved it and I recently received a directory of the members of finance. I can see where you're coming from, where you come from? Well, what were, were there many minority students? Um, do you remember now? What do you mean by

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minorities? Were most of the students? Um White southern baptist from Alabama. Um I think most of them were from Alabama. I do not recall how many were from other states. I know there were many students there who were not baptist. Uh There were many from Birmingham

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and I had friends in Birmingham at that time who were not students who were not baptist. So it hasn't been strictly baptist institution at all. But I think that I think that Howard has always been um um I don't think Howard has ever been prejudiced against

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other denominations or against minorities. You perhaps would like to know something about the the buildings themselves, would you not? Alright. The main building on the campus was the old main building that was that has the administrative offices and and many most of the classrooms and the

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auditorium. Now the classrooms were very crudely furnished, They were sometimes very poorly heated. But um you know, we were young and we didn't think too much about that at the time. And then there was uh old montague hall and the library was on the second floor

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of montague Hall occupied one room, um classrooms around the first floor. Um There were there was a Boris dormitory and then then there were some opportunity houses the girls dormitory when I went, there was an old building and I believe, if I remember correctly, there were

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only four bedrooms. Now, of course, I've forgotten how many girls occupied those four bedrooms. I believe there were about 16 because we had to crowd up at that time into the rooms and Florence pass again. Was in charge I believe, of that dormitory. For that first

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year, the second year the girls dormitory was moved to the location where mandy smith hall now is, if you know where that is, it was on on Second Avenue and was a very fine dormitory in Sudan in later years. Um There were not many buildings. There

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were not too many professors. Would you like me to tell you something about my professor? All right. All right. Um Doctor french chains. A young lady who was just out of Cornell University just received her doctorate at Cornell became the first dean of women and she

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also taught his literature. Uh She was Adina women after we moved to um the new dormitory. Dr oh chapman was head of the religious education department. Okay. You're telling about dr chapman. Yes, Dr chapman. And then there was Dean Burns, who was head of the english

00:29:19.300 - 00:29:47.230

department and also dean of the university of the college. Dr gain. Burns also was a man of the old school. He was a scholar. He was a gentleman and he and dr chapman were brothers in law. They had married sisters. Dean. Dean Burns had an interest

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in the students and he was an excellent Shakespeare teacher. I did not know really how to appreciate him as a Shakespeare teacher until later in life when I did some teaching myself and I realized that he was really a wonderful teacher. He had us do a

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lot of memorization but I think memorization sometimes is a very good thing because in later life in many situations it can help one. And I think it was good. I would like to pay tribute really to dr Dean Burns for his teaching of Shakespeare because I

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learned so much under him. And another teacher was Professor egos who taught math. Now math and science were never my cup of tea and I shall never forget that Professor Eagles tried to teach me algebra at the end of the year I went to him and

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very timidly asked him if he had graded my paper and he with a twinkle in his eye, he said yes I have graded your paper and do you want to know how much you made or how much I gave? Well I said please how much did

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you give me? He said I gave you a beef. Did you find out what you made a B. B. And I was thrilled to death to get that. Well everybody loved Professor Eagles. Professor Bohannon taught psychology and teacher and education. Well in Professor bo Hammond's class

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I learned that it was very easy to hypnotize students because he could hypnotize and he demonstrated that several times in class and of course that was always very funny and very interesting. Dr Ives boss um biology teacher. He was an excellent teacher also. And I'm not

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sure that I owe Gladstone. Jackson was an instructor in history now. I love history. Um don't forget that I was a very timid freshman and in history class in calling the role. He would always say Miss Willow, you be mine. And of course, being so timid,

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you know, I was just embarrassed to death and everybody would always laugh. But now if he were to ask that now, I would say of course just when. Yeah, those are just some of the things that we made in our professors. But I do want to

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say that I think the faculty as a whole took an interest in the students, they knew their students. There was a good relationship between students and faculty and I think one of the greatest tributes that you can pay to a small denominational school is that relationship

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between faculty and students. I think that is just as important As anything one might learn in books. Um What what was it like moving from, you said you always grew up in the in the country. What was it like moving from the little city to the

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big city? Well, you see, I had had been to Enterprise, you know, and then from Enterprise, I did graduate from from B. C. I. That was in Newton at the baptist collegiate. You Well of course, as I said, I was wholly unprepared uh for a city

00:33:52.210 - 00:34:08.200

in in Birmingham. But I soon learned, I soon learned to get around in Birmingham and I thoroughly enjoyed Birmingham and loved every minute of it. You may be interested in this incident that took place. Uh when I was a freshman. Soon after I entered Howard, some

00:34:08.200 - 00:34:23.950

of us fresh, some of the freshman decided that we would go to town one afternoon to a movie. Now we hadn't done this before, but we decided we'd go to town to a movie and at that time they had the old rickety streetcars and the streetcars

00:34:23.950 - 00:34:41.040

ran right in front of Howard College. Well, uh, I believe that was my first ride on. No, no, not quite know that my first ride on the streetcar. But anyway, we got on the streetcar and I was the last one getting on at that time. The

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fair was only five cents. Uh, you could ride anywhere for five cents. And so anyway, I was the last one putting my five cents in the slot. And just as I was closing my purse after putting my money in the slot, that streetcar gave a lurch

00:35:02.520 - 00:35:28.410

and a jerk and a rattle. Well, it was so unexpected. And so um, oh, it was just a tremendous jerk that it made that I completely lost my balance and I also lost my dignity because some unsuspecting soul had left a huge basket. It was somewhat

00:35:28.410 - 00:35:47.900

like the old cotton baskets, you won't know what I'm talking about, but it was something like the old cotton baskets right in the uh in the pathway of the oncoming passengers. And so when that streetcar gave a lurch, I sat right down in that cotton basket,

00:35:48.870 - 00:36:16.140

bottom side down with my hands and my feet sticking up out of that basket when you can imagine the uproar on the streetcar. It was funny, I grant you, but I but I was reminded that it was not all funny for several days when I attempted

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to sit down. No, there were many funny, very funny things that happened during those early days. What you mentioned going to a movie, what other types of things did you do for entertainment? There were plays in town. Uh there were stock companies playing in Birmingham at

00:36:38.870 - 00:36:54.930

the time. And incidentally one of the stock companies came out, some of them came out to see some of our plays and you'd be surprised to know that I was offered a place in one of the stock companies but be that as it may, but we

00:36:54.930 - 00:37:18.150

did enjoy the place in Birmingham. We enjoyed movies and I must mention old Eastlake Eastlake had uh entertainment area out there, you know with all kinds of uh ferris wheels and all these contraptions, you know that are dangerous. But anyway we would go out to easily

00:37:18.160 - 00:37:40.830

quite a lot and enjoyed that walked around the lake and I must say that perhaps a lot of courting was also done around his lake with the students. Well, um and then we, especially those of us who were studying drama, we gave programs over uh Birmingham

00:37:40.830 - 00:37:58.600

city of Birmingham. I remember that I gave program, we call them readings at the time, our little playlets or something we gave at the first baptist church and other churches in Birmingham. And I remember once that I went out to the, what was called in, they

00:37:58.610 - 00:38:15.380

call them the old folks home. They're simply nursing homes today. But I would go out there sometime and give programs and I shall never forget the gratitude of those old people and how my heart went out to them because they were lonely and how much they

00:38:15.380 - 00:38:43.030

enjoy the young people paying some attention to them. Well, um before we, before we go on and and and talk about your life after coward. I'd just like you to tell me anything else that you think that I would be interested in. Um that happened while

00:38:43.030 - 00:39:09.280

you were there. Well, I remember once I took the lead in um oh, not an operator, but something that was given down at one of the theaters in Birmingham. So you see, we were some of us were very active in Birmingham also during my, during my

00:39:09.290 - 00:39:29.990

junior year. Probably it was my senior year, I guess it was um there was something and I don't know what organizations sponsored this. Perhaps it was the right of the C. A. I don't know, I don't know who sponsored it, I don't remember but it was

00:39:29.990 - 00:39:53.910

something like a popularity contest and uh so I was persuaded to Andrea and I did and I had a very fine business manager and much to my surprise, I came out as the winner and that was really what was the first miss Howard College? Oh that's

00:39:53.910 - 00:40:21.660

really good. I'm pleased to meet the freshness Howard Well, well I love Howard College on my graduation day. I should never forget that. Of course I was thrilled. I was thrilled beyond words to receive the high patient loving. Um I was glad to be graduating but

00:40:21.660 - 00:40:38.140

at the same time I was very sad. I was sad at leaving my dear friends and I have some wonderful friends there. I was sad at leaving my friends. And also I think there was a tinge of fear in it because I realized I was not

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equipped to get out and meet life situations. I was not equipped really and truly I was not equipped to be a teacher. I was not equipped to enter the business world in any way. I realized that as a student, I enjoyed my student days. I loved

00:40:55.170 - 00:41:17.100

it. I loved Howard as I look back over it. I think that one of the things that Howard missed a great opportunity that Howard missed was having a course taught by a fine minister or some fine person, on ethics, on character development and on meeting life

00:41:17.100 - 00:41:38.200

situations, I think every college and university should have such a course because I do think that many go out into the world not knowing what, what to expect or what they're going to need well. So you talk after you graduated after I graduated? Yes. Uh, now

00:41:38.200 - 00:41:56.660

when I graduated, I did not know that. I mean I did not have um a job when when I graduated. I think that was another reason why there was a little fear, you know, But when I did get home, when I went home very shortly I

00:41:56.670 - 00:42:18.870

was offered a position at Malone florida High School as head of the spanish and um teacher training department and I stayed there one year, but I did feel it, I would rather go somewhere else. And I was offered again unexpectedly, I was offered a job at

00:42:18.870 - 00:42:35.680

moore Haven florida where I went as head of the english department. There, moore haven florida is on was really in a way built up out of lake Okeechobee florida, which is one of the, of the largest inland water lake in the world. three weeks after I

00:42:35.680 - 00:42:55.740

went down there, one of the worst hurricanes, if not the worst hurricane that ever hit the coast of florida um get more happen and the dikes broke. That was you see the town and then build up out of the lake, all the dikes broke. The water

00:42:55.740 - 00:43:14.560

entered out on the town was from 18 to 20 ft deep and the hotel where I was living tore apart. One wing of it went into splinters. The wing that I was in came off the foundation were around and around and wedged up against some more

00:43:14.560 - 00:43:34.100

buildings I was in it. It was a horrible, horrible experience and I will not go into it other than to say that one never really gets over an experience like that. It lasted three days for three days. We went about food and water and it was

00:43:34.100 - 00:43:56.890

a horrible experience but I did lose everything I had in it, including my after news and and some very prized memorabilia of my howard days from there. I went to uh winter park florida where my oldest sister at that time was living and I became head

00:43:56.900 - 00:44:24.140

of the english department. They had the high school um After three years of teaching I decided that teaching that I had much rather do something else because I still was feeling the trauma of the hurricane. And so I decided that I would not teach anymore. I

00:44:24.140 - 00:44:40.270

decided that I would try to enter the library field because I felt that was would be more to my liking at that time and I'm very glad I did. Um Miss lila Mae chapman who was librarian at the public library in Birmingham and had been a

00:44:40.270 - 00:45:00.360

friend of mine as a student there. She was also if I knew wrote and offered me a place there. Um and so I was there for one year before going to and she was instrumental in helping me to get a scholarship to Emory University Laboratory. And

00:45:00.360 - 00:45:17.110

so I was at Emory then for a year and received my uh at that time we had to get a bachelor's degree in library science before we received our masters. Uh and so I was there here and received my bachelor's in library sounds and it was

00:45:17.110 - 00:45:56.210

while I was there that professor echoes who was acting president at that time of Howard College wrote and asked me if I would consider going to Howard as librarian. You got back to Howard as librarian? Yes. Um Professor Ecos wrote and

00:45:56.220 - 00:46:13.160

asked me if I would consider that was why I was a student at Emory. And I was quite undecided for a while because I was not sure that it was good for a student to go back to her alma mater. Especially in view of the fact

00:46:13.890 - 00:46:39.300

that the one who was then acting librarian had been there for a number of years, but she was not a professionally trained library also the year before I was there dr john c. Dawson who was president when I was a student had married Miss Avis Marshall

00:46:39.310 - 00:47:01.430

the first professional librarian of Howard college and they had gone to Tuscaloosa. This left a vacancy at Howard And so of course they are honored and pleased that they considered me, but I wasn't sure of the wisdom uh such a thing, but I finally decided to

00:47:01.440 - 00:47:29.070

accept it, Which I did. And I went to Howard as librarian in the fall of 1931. Now I held that position until 1956. Um During those years I was given a leave of absence to attend Columbia University Library School um Where I received, that was in

00:47:29.070 - 00:47:51.340

1940 and 41 where I received a master's degree in library administration. Also during World War One, I was given a lead to go to page field florida. Um not as a member of the military, but on the civil service to organize a library there for the

00:47:51.340 - 00:48:20.680

military, for the air base, which I did. I've always been very grateful to Major Harlan Davis who was president then for these leaves because they both offered wonderful opportunities to me in my development. Columbia University um offers such wonderful opportunities educationally and also culturally because I

00:48:20.680 - 00:48:49.100

had an opportunity to to enjoy uh new york city and all of the marvelous opportunities that it afforded which I truly truly enjoy. But page field florida of course also gave me an understanding of a different side of life and I I that I understood so

00:48:49.100 - 00:49:17.720

much better the part of the soldier, his, his fears, um his uncertainties and his need for counseling and I felt at the time they almost considered me their sisterly advisor. And it did show me a different side of life which which added to my experience of

00:49:17.720 - 00:49:37.740

life in general. And I was grateful for those two uh leaves of absence. Um now follow powered as Liberians. You might, you perhaps you want to know something about how the collection grew or what, what was the collection like when I went? What was the library

00:49:37.740 - 00:50:06.650

like? All right, the library Um grew under my administration from I think it was about 20,000 volumes when I first went. And when I left it had over 100,000 including government publications. Now of course this was not a spectacular growth at all for a college library

00:50:06.660 - 00:50:38.950

unless it is considered. And light of the fact that howard during those years was a poor institution financially, we were always struggling for money trying to meet standards and um might say that every year and getting a budget for the library, there was quite a struggle

00:50:38.960 - 00:50:59.830

on my part. Nevertheless we did make progress during that time. Now the library itself, but still as it was when I was a student when I first went there, there was just one room on the second floor of montague Hall. So the rear of that room

00:50:59.840 - 00:51:28.430

was um a storage ring where the where everything extraneous was stored, there were some government publications back there and also some really scarce and some rare, I would say rare books back there which had not been property um processed. They were not cared for properly and

00:51:28.560 - 00:51:58.910

everything was a fire hazard. It was in 1937 and 38 I believe. When money Guitar had a facelift, the library was moved and this was actually much, much caution on my part to the administration, but the library was moved over to the boys dormitory. The boys

00:51:58.910 - 00:52:16.740

dormitory was closed that year, I believe, or at least a part of it was, it was the old cafeteria. It was that, that was the part that was closed, the cafeteria was closed and that library was moved into the old cafeteria and during that time, during

00:52:16.740 - 00:52:42.240

that time, of course, all of us work very hard. Um, I worked so hard, both physically and emotionally and mentally trying to meet the demands of the situation that and actually I had during that time my arches fell on my feet, both feet. It was one

00:52:42.240 - 00:53:07.670

of the most painful experiences. I had to have my feet and my legs strapped bound to my knees in order to carry on the work. But we moved over there. I'm not sure how long we were in Montague Hall in the dormitory, right. Um, I believe

00:53:07.670 - 00:53:35.640

it was in 1938, I think when we moved back into Montague Hall. Now, during that time we had that, that market hall had been just completely renovated downstairs. Most of it was converted into, I believe, all of it was converted into the library. Um the reading

00:53:35.640 - 00:53:54.630

area and the checkout desk, All those things were on the first floor, together with the librarian's office. Incidentally there was no outside air to the librarian's office. Never was. Um And the work room also was in was on the first floor. Also the stacks, we added

00:53:54.630 - 00:54:13.140

stacks that year and they were on the first floor. Now on the second floor, we had what dr Bliss, who had been chairman of the pharmacy department, had died and his collection had gone to the library. And so we had his collection on second floor with

00:54:13.150 - 00:54:32.080

science books, I believe. And also there was one classroom that on second floor, which was also a source of annoyance, you know, in the library and especially a small building as that was quite a source of annoyance. Uh But nevertheless that was quite a an improvement

00:54:32.090 - 00:55:04.560

in the library now in 19 44 and 45 I must say though, that we did get new new furniture and during that time at the library. But in 1944 and 45. And in April 1944 Uh did go to to get a lead and went down to

00:55:04.560 - 00:55:25.320

Florida was during the war. And it was purely a patriotic service for my country. I went to Florida and organized this library for page field airbase. And and during that time about 1945, the college started what he called the nuclear program. And you probably have heard

00:55:25.320 - 00:55:41.010

that from some of the other professors that had been interviewed, but it was a nuclear program in which, and I don't know that I will try to explain that to you at all. Except from the library viewpoint. The students were required to do a, those under

00:55:41.010 - 00:56:00.660

that program required to do a tremendous lot of reading. They could not be expected to buy all of the books that they would need. There would be many books uh that they would have to use. And so the library then had to purchase those books and

00:56:00.670 - 00:56:24.790

and process them and administer them to the students. And that room was kept upstairs and called the reserve a room. Well when I was 1945 in August of 1945 after the war in Japan had ended, it was not quite over, I believe in europe, I remember

00:56:24.790 - 00:56:45.750

correctly, I was processed for europe red for sailing for service in europe when dr when major Davis wrote and asked me if I would not return to the college and because I was needed in this new program that was instituted. So I did, I gave up

00:56:45.750 - 00:57:06.310

my opportunity to go to europe at that time and went back to Howard because I felt my allegiance to Howard and I knew that I had that if I ever intended to go back I should go then. So I went and we were woefully lacking in

00:57:06.320 - 00:57:26.390

trained librarians. I was able to get an assistant librarian very soon. Miss Margaret thomas who became my assistant librarian and who was my very good friend and a wonderful help to me during those years. Um She was a professional trained librarian and had had a good

00:57:26.390 - 00:57:46.090

bit of experience. So she became my assistant librarian. And the catalog also presumed we added another professional trained librarian. MS mary beth quick. And then later some of the professors, wives of some of the professors who had had library training also helped. In the meantime, we

00:57:46.090 - 00:58:04.320

had about 35 or 40 student assistance because the enrollment of Howard was just uh tripling I think in doubling during that time. And we were, we were under tremendous stress in the library to provide the kind of service that we wanted to provide. And and so

00:58:04.330 - 00:58:23.590

we had about 35 I think a more student assistance. We had to try to train those students in addition to everything else and to supervise them. This was uh most of those students, I say with all due respect were interested mostly in the paycheck. They were

00:58:23.590 - 00:58:41.850

interested in getting through the college and not interested in library work. There were some, however who were interested truly interested in libra and they went on and got degrees. Incidentally the secretary of the executive secretary of Alabama Library association today was one of my students, student

00:58:41.850 - 00:59:00.500

assistants. I had another student assistant who became head of the southern uh research center in Birmingham at that time of their fine one. I've had students assistants there who went ahead to occupy important positions. And so I feel that the work with the student assistance was

00:59:00.500 - 00:59:28.610

not altogether lost. And and I enjoyed so many of my students I really did now now then going back to those years after then um In 1951, a television. Now, this was quite an innovation at the side. I'm giving you only the highlights, understand, But we

00:59:28.610 - 00:59:48.740

added a television set in the library. And in the meantime though we had converted that old period old storage room upstairs. We had converted that into a periodical room. We kept our band periodical in there and and some of the government, most of the government publications

00:59:48.740 - 01:00:05.530

we kept in there in that room, but we also added a television set that year. And it was bought incidentally with money that the students had paid in fines. The college did not pay for it. The students pay for it and therefore I felt that it

01:00:05.530 - 01:00:24.500

should be available to the students. And we provided not only uh earphones, we brought records and added earphones so that the students that they wished to listen to classical music or anything so that they could do so as well as new television and on certain days

01:00:24.500 - 01:00:41.650

as certain hours, the students were allowed to go in and turn the television set on and listen and watch television. We thought that that was quite really an innovation. And then we also organized a library club for the students. And um, I wrote an article about

01:00:41.650 - 01:01:07.080

our library club and it was published in the Wilson Library Publican, which was the national library publication at that time. Um oh, In 19, also in 19 somewhere around. Well, shortly after I returned to Howard. After the war, we began thinking in terms of a new

01:01:07.080 - 01:01:30.920

campus of a new building entirely. And so thanks to Major Davis who was president, I was allowed to pretend to attend my professional meetings over the country, the, the american Library Association meeting and also the state meetings and southeastern meetings. When I attended those meetings, I

01:01:30.920 - 01:02:05.620

always visited other libraries for any possible um innovations or ideas that we might use in a new building when it was constructed. Um in 19 about 19 15 two, I think we began seriously to consider the new building and what should be considered in a new

01:02:05.630 - 01:02:24.060

library building for the new campus because of course the new campus had been proposed and they were planning to move as you know, I don't let your drive, which is where, which is of course, as you know, later became stanford University. Um, it was a very

01:02:26.920 - 01:02:46.720

tedious undertaking because I knew the steps that should be taken in the planning of the library building. I had studied it enough at Columbia University, I had of course in my rebuilding plans, I had read, I knew exactly what we should do, but it was not

01:02:46.730 - 01:03:10.360

too easy to get those plans carried through and adopted at Howard, we weren't able to get a faculty library committee and that committee was supposed to present or to help us to know what the faculty wanted in a library building. It was not too long before

01:03:10.360 - 01:03:30.590

I learned that it was very difficult to get a consensus of opinion on what the fact that he wanted. I thought we should have in the new library building and I realized that if we were able to make much progress in the development of this new

01:03:30.590 - 01:03:58.960

library that we must call in a professional, unbiased person to help in the planning of the building. And I was able to persuade Major Davis, who very reluctantly agreed to having a library buildings consultant come in and give suggestions, make suggestions both to the faculty, to

01:03:58.960 - 01:04:24.860

the library and to the architect um what was needed in a library building. We secured the services of dr af Kumin who was then director of libraries at Vanderbilt University. Dr Coleman was just invaluable in his assistance because he was able, oh perhaps where I would

01:04:24.860 - 01:04:50.880

not have been able to do so, he was able to convince both the faculty and the administration of certain needs that the library that must be met in the library building and, and so um for three years, three long years I worked very hard in trying

01:04:50.890 - 01:05:16.650

to work out a feasible library program which is always needed in a building program, a library program for the new building together with dr kula assistance. Um at the end of that time when, when the building was started after it was started, in fact um I'm

01:05:16.650 - 01:05:42.100

not sure if that was in 1950 four, that was probably 1955 when the ground had been broken. And then I think that the groundwork was underway I think for the building when I learned much to my dismay that they we're going to because of financial reasons,

01:05:42.110 - 01:06:06.000

they said have to be that the elevator And there were four floors, the library had to leave out the elevator and also air conditioning. For all those years. I have worked in a building with no outside veneration with no air conditioning. Well, you can imagine my

01:06:06.000 - 01:06:31.470

disappointment at the two features of the building which were absolutely essential to the comfort of the staff and to the efficiency of the operation of the library and at that time which was quite unsolved on my part at a time when I was both physically and

01:06:31.470 - 01:07:00.750

emotionally, I guess spent and trying to work out this new building. An offer came to me from Hardin Simmons University to become director of the library there. And after much thought and much consideration, I decided that perhaps my usefulness that I had served my usefulness at

01:07:00.750 - 01:07:21.100

Howard in trying to hold the library together and maintain standards until they can have, could have a better situation. And perhaps our two was ready for a new challenge. And so I accepted the position at Hardin Simmons University in African. Now I would like to go

01:07:21.100 - 01:07:40.510

back now and tell you some of the things that we did during those years if I may and I'm not sure of all of my dates because as I said, you know, I have forgotten some of them, but I did want to tell you about some

01:07:40.510 - 01:08:13.310

of the things that we did during that time. Um, and in the, in the Spring, I guess of 19 40 one or 2, I guess. Thank you too. Um, I started a library handle. Maybe it was a little later I compiled the first library handle that

01:08:13.310 - 01:08:33.140

Howard ever had. That was for the faculty and students. Incidentally, that library handbook was sent to some of the institutions. Um, I had borrowed some handbooks from some of them, some of the universities and I sent one back to my alma mater at Columbia. That handbook

01:08:33.150 - 01:08:50.530

received very favorable reviews from Columbia University and one of the students who was then at Columbia University said that he had examined a number of handbooks from over the country and that mine was the best one he had. So that was one thing that I was

01:08:50.530 - 01:09:07.790

right proud of. That handbook by the way was revised every two years and printed the first one was on the memory graph the second the others were printed. But they I believe they were going to handle it how it ever had also. How long were they

01:09:07.800 - 01:09:33.330

for? Two years. Each was for two years. But how long did they revise it every two years? You mean? How many until I left until I left in 1956. I don't know. I don't know what happened really then. But anyway, also I started a library newsletter

01:09:33.630 - 01:09:53.690

to the faculty and to the students. Um, This newsletter carried the important things that we thought were or that the faculty and students should know that also a list of the acquisitions because we felt that if the students and the faculty could know what was being

01:09:53.700 - 01:10:16.630

added in the library that they would take more interest and they would use the library more. And so that was continued until I left also in 1956. Now, those two publications carried a good bit of information that would be helpful to any future historian interested in

01:10:16.630 - 01:10:36.400

the library. Um, I left those publications bound in the library when I lived out of college. I am not sure they're there. Now. I think I examined, I looked through the card catalog in the southern collection when I was there and I found no record of

01:10:36.400 - 01:10:56.920

them. I don't know what happened to them. Also, I want to say this that when I was in Colombia, my interest of course was still in Howard College. My thesis and I had to write a thesis. My thesis was on the reading habits of Howard College

01:10:56.920 - 01:11:17.970

students in relation. Um, I've forgotten the exact title, but anyways, the reading reading of Howard College students, I have that piece is banned in my own personal library now as well as copies of the handbooks and copies of the newsletter. All of these things are important.

01:11:17.980 - 01:11:36.610

So far as the history of old Howard College Library is concerned, they're very important and should be in the library at Howard at Sanford. I would appreciate your looking up to be sure. And to let me know if not, I can contribute my own personal copies

01:11:36.610 - 01:12:02.440

because I doubt if any of my family would be interested in them after I'm gone. And I would like for them to serve some purpose to any possible future historian. Also during that time, um, hi tried in every way to raise the standard of our college

01:12:02.440 - 01:12:32.120

library through public relations through activities in my profession. Uh, during that time I was treasurer of Alabama Library Association. I served on every committee. I think almost every committee, I was vice president and then I became president of Alabama Library Association in 1951 and 52, I

01:12:32.120 - 01:13:01.820

believe it was. Um, also during that time I was on the board of the Southeastern Library Association. I compiled a directory membership directory of the membership of Southeastern Alberta Association, which was printed And distributed to the to the members of the Southeastern Association in 1964. At

01:13:01.820 - 01:13:23.590

which time I was elected as Chairman of the College and University section of Southeastern Library Association. And uh even they met every two years. Incidentally, even after I went to Harden Simmons University um Dr Reid, who was then president, insisted that I carried through with my

01:13:23.590 - 01:13:41.250

duties as chairman of Southeastern and I went back, he committed me to go back to roanoke Virginia where the meeting was held that year and I presented the program um uh for the college University section. I also served on a committee for the american Library association

01:13:41.250 - 01:14:11.890

during that time. And incidentally one of my poems was accepted for an anthology by the um and and was published in the book without boundaries for the Alabama portrait society. Um I was also elected as one of the 30 career women of Birmingham during those years.

01:14:14.630 - 01:14:37.890

There are so many things that I tried to do during the time that I was librarian to help the college and to provide a library that the college would be proud of. I really think that I did incidentally, I was also editor of the Alabama librarian

01:14:37.900 - 01:14:58.630

during that time, which was the official official organ of the Alabama Library association and is still the official organ of the Alabama Library association. I was the first editor of that organ of that organ. That too is is supposed to be in the library. So you

01:14:58.630 - 01:15:16.340

see, I worked every way I could to promote the good of Howard College and the good of the college of the College library. We did raise our standards because we were complemented by the Southern Association. Finally, on the progress that the library had made during the

01:15:16.340 - 01:15:39.020

administration. I feel that my time there, even though we did not neck as I said, we did not make spectacular um progress except in view of the fact that we struggle so much financially, but we did, we did struggle and we did make progress and I

01:15:39.020 - 01:16:05.070

do think that what few records I helped should be preserved. They're in the library. I did offer Major Davis in 1970. Um five I believe, I think it was 1975, wrote and asked me if I would consider writing the history of the library during my administration.

01:16:05.890 - 01:16:29.060

I agreed to do so. Um I was prepared to do so, but it would require going back to Howard and spending some time there and doing research, I was not able to get the promise of the accommodations that I would have needed and the help that

01:16:29.060 - 01:16:52.300

I would need. So it was not too long then I think when major Davis died and so the project was surprised. I'm sorry about that. It should have been done. I did offer to give an oral history report to Mr ham bold. Incidentally, I think Mr

01:16:52.300 - 01:17:10.860

Campbell has made tremendous, made tremendous progress in the library. I want to commend happen to that. Perhaps it was his illness that neglected this. But I was this is the first opportunity I have had to give an oral history report of just the highlights of the

01:17:10.860 - 01:17:32.990

progress of Howard carter's library. And I'm grateful to you and to your teacher in your class for this opportunity, grateful for use for other, given the proper to use an interview. His last words, you don't think you want to? Well, my last words are I guess

01:17:33.000 - 01:17:53.160

that I've always loved Howard. I loved Howard, even when I left, it broke my heart almost to leave. But that's because I felt that I needed a new challenge. Um I love Howard, I still love Howard. I contribute a small amount each year. Howard and I

01:17:53.160 - 01:18:15.390

shall continue to do so. But it always goes for the life because of course the library was was my first level. Okay. And you had a few more things that you want to mention. I believe I failed to mention the annual reports that were sent to

01:18:15.400 - 01:18:37.790

the president to major Davis. Um I have in my hands here a bound copy of a three-year report that was made to President Davis. It covers the years 1945-48. There were other annual three year reports also, but this is the only one in my position. Now,

01:18:37.790 - 01:19:01.420

this report is a detailed report on the progress of the library for three years. Um, and it too would be invaluable I think to any future historian also. Oh, I wanted to mention that during that time in addition to our student handbook that we got at

01:19:01.430 - 01:19:19.500

a handbook purely for the faculty. And I had so many favorable comments from the faculty on that handbook because they helped them, many of them, you know, many, sometimes professors are not too versed in the use of the library and sometimes you find professors who are

01:19:19.500 - 01:19:38.150

not too fond of the library. So we hope that it would help the faculty and we think that it did. And we also had conferences. I mean we had workshops, workshops for the faculty and I remember one uh, and I remember our Dina women mrs open

01:19:38.150 - 01:20:00.810

Shane told me that that was one of the most helpful things that she had had at Howard College. So again, I mentioned these things just to show how hard we did try at Howard to have good luck. What about dr Ryan O in, in my thesis

01:20:00.810 - 01:20:19.770

that I wrote at Columbia University. The title of that piece is, is library service of powered college in relation to the reading of faculty and students. It showed the reading interest of the faculty and the students, and it has many graphs and charts in it. A

01:20:19.770 - 01:20:42.670

questionnaire had to go to howard to the faculty and students before I could complete write my thesis at Columbia, I shall always be grateful to Dr Irons, who was then head of the history department and whose wife was one of my dear friends. Dr Arinze was

01:20:42.670 - 01:21:03.090

responsible for distributing these questionnaires and for returning them to me at Columbia, and I shall always be grateful to him for his service there. Not only was he helpful this, but I believe he was one of the most willing workers and willing helpers that perhaps haven't

01:21:03.090 - 01:21:03.830

ever had.