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This is an interview with Mr Ben Fountain Robinson for the stanford University oral history program by evenly McCray V. At his home on 15 20 for Edwards Lake Road Birmingham Alabama conducted saturday august 9th 1986. Could you just tell me a little bit about when you

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grew up and everything where you grew up and where you were born in Alabama? I was born on October 24, 19 and 12. How many brothers and sisters? 8 7, 7 brothers and one sister. Are you the oldest? No, I was third from the third from

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the youngest. What were some of the things you did while you were growing up? Well we lived on the farm right outside of Albuterol. It's just a small farm. My father was a rural letter carriers and we had a farm too. And when I was about

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seven years old we moved away from the farm and moved into downtown Alberta and he was still a rural letter carrier. And I had started school in first grade at the Albertville elementary School And that when I was in about 3rd grade the school house burned

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down and we had to move over to the high school. So we occupied part of the Albuterol high school for the rest of my elementary school education. Then I entered Albertville High School. It was known in, it was known as the, oh there's an agricultural college,

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it was state funded high school college, no agricultural high school, but it was a state funded, how long, how many years is elementary school was it? Six years then it was six years and four years. No, it was eight years with four years of high school.

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They did go into a junior high program from 6-8, 7th and 9th Year. It was a junior high program and then you had four years in high school. When did you graduate? 33 what did you do actually graduate from high school? Well, I uh, when I

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was in high school, I played football and Howard College, Sanford Now, Howard College offered me a scholarship. Uh so I entered Howard College at the old campus over on Second Avenue South, entered in 19 and 35. What position did you play in high school? Did you

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get straight from high school? You know, I was out a year. I worked a year. In fact, I think I worked a year and a half because I started to Howard college at, in january, january turn. If you start in the january term. Were you there

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in january before the Alabama game or has the Alabama? Howard game just occur that fall? I believe the Alabama Howard game was in 1935, but it was a preseason game for the fall football season. It was like an early football game for fall. I had already

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been in school for half a year and had spring training in my january and then I started in the fall and was a still a freshman on the freshman team. Back then we had a freshman team in a varsity team But it was a fall of

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35 I believe that Alabama and Howard played And it was a tie game 77. What was so great about that? Well, Alabama had just gotten back from the Rose Bowl back then. They would let anybody in the nation go to the Rose Bowl. That would was

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number one in the nation. Now they've changed it restricted but then anybody could go. So Alabama went three or 4 times before they changed it. But 1934 Alabama went to the road bowling in the next Uh football season, which was 1935 Howard played. Mhm. Alabama a

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preseason game. We were not in the same league as Alabama. Alabama. Alabama was in the South Southeastern Conference. We was in what they called a Southern Conference. South Alabama was in the South eastern teams like Alabama, Auburn, L. S. U. Tennessee valuable today today. It's like

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Alabama and Mississippi. Uh It might have changed some. I don't know exactly how much but the conference that we was in, they call it the Southern Conference. And we was we would play teams like southern Birmingham, Southern and Millsap meal sound and other colleges that were

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really smaller than the ones that were in the South Eastern Companies. Was there a good football team back then. Yes, I I've forgotten what our score was. I remember the freshman team that year that I was a freshman. We won all of our games. We didn't

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play before. But one our biggest game that year was with pressure. Well that the rest of our games was with high schools. We didn't have any other college freshman games. Um I was going through the, it seems like rhodium Southern and Howard had a big rivalry.

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Oh best. I remember we played every thanksgiving and they it was a big rivalry and both both colleges had good football teams. But uh there was an accident happened and one of the students got killed one year. I don't know. I can't remember the exact particulars

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of that now. But they stopped playing for several years and I really don't know when they started back. It might have been after World War Two. Where did you have the religion field? We have a football games now. Yeah but it didn't happen. Just bleachers on

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each side then they've added to it and put all of this other around it. Since then. I didn't know it was that old. Okay. I think it started off maybe holding 16,000 something like that. That was big then. But they've expanded legion field all several times

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since then. Who was the president? I believe it was president. Right. Doctor. Right. Um. Oh the big parade. What was the big parade? I read something about that in there. They had a big parade every year. Well well we had one before the Birmingham Southern and

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Howard football game. And they have a parade. No I was I was tied up with the football team and the team wasn't in the parade. Um What was your mascot mascot? Yes ours was a bulldog. Did you have a live one or No. It seemed like

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we had a live one for some some of the time. Um bro, ham Southern understand how the panther. Yes. Yeah I heard that one year uh Howard stole the panther? Did a lot of things. What what some of the things that they did they would, 11

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of the colleges catch a student from the other colleague made him shave his head shaved his hair off. Did they ever catch? You know? No they didn't. But they just do I guess what students do. Where did you stay when you went to Howard? I stayed,

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my mother and father moved here and I stayed at home. They live in this light. Did they move just so you can go to college? Well he had retired and I don't know whether because I want to go to college. My brother, my brother wanted to

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go to college too and we were the only two left at home. He went to business college. Um. Oh there were some boarding houses and girl dormitories. And what were some of them. Where were they? Ah Boys dormitory was right on the campus and they didn't

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have a girls dormitory for a long time. And then they had the location where the east end hospital was. They had that as the girls dormitory. Four, it's where the eastern hospital was, that's where it started was in that building. And they expanded that building on

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to the hospital. Did y'all have chapel? Yes it was in the main building. We had the main building and two smaller buildings and the best I remember we had a main building with the chapel in it and two smaller buildings where we had our classrooms mostly.

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And then the boys dormitory was on the campus And then the girls dormitory was about two blocks away. Underwood Underwood Avenue is 2nd Avenue. It used to be named Underwood Avenue. Okay because I was reading the girl was on Underwood and they changed the name of

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Underwood Avenue to Second Avenue South. But when it was first laid out, when East Lake was first laid out, 2nd Avenue South was named Underwood Avenue. Okay. Uh You moved into east like when the college there was there as many houses and everything there are now.

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Uh Well mostly back then the houses were built close to really. The only transportation they had was the streetcars you get several blocks away but after a while they started building subdivisions and adding onto it. And uh well where Banks High School is now around Banks

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High School is all subdivisions that are 25 years or old or less maybe At the time you were born. Howard in 1930s, houses, grocery store. Well, there's a few grocery stores, a little corner grocery stores and you have to walk a couple blocks to catch the

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streetcar. Well, unless you lived on the streetcar line, everybody tried to live on the street car line. The street, that's the street that carries the streetcar, right? So the streetcar ran down First Avenue North, So ever and 2nd Avenue South or Underwood Avenue. So everybody tried

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to get located on those streets to where they could catch a streetcar in front of their house. Did you ride the streetcar? Well now when I went to school, I walked to school About the only about five blocks 6 blocks from school. But if you win

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it, if you come, if you come downtown, you'd have to ride the streetcar. How much was it? seven cents? seven cents. Did you have coins back then? That were smaller than pennies? I don't believe so, 17. A lot of people you see the street car would

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run from east East Lake. A lot of people on sunday would just ride the streetcar and just the sunday drive. And Um, what was eight today? Well, that was Howard Day. You know it, uh, it was for Howard and it was just a day that they

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had a lot of events of it. And some of it was the graduates and alumni will come back and visit that have luncheons and things. I don't know exactly what all of the events that was carried on. But it was just a day of celebrating Howard,

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that must be, where we got s day. It might be. I was wondering about that. Um, they mentioned in the Princeton, which was, you know, the newspaper that there was a big bonfire that year. The freshman, did, they mentioned you remember anything about that? Seems like

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to me, we would uh, we had a bond for out now when I was talking about the buildings while ago, the main building and the two buildings were classes back of that was a football field or where we practiced football. And we also had some games

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out there. We had a small, uh, seating on each side of the football field. We played some of our games out there too, but most of the games we played at legion field, the only game that we played at legion field as a freshman was the

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Birmingham Southern. That's only one. We played that game. That, that was in Birmingham. They travel around, Yeah, they do similar to what to do now. One year like Millsap would come to Birmingham and the next year. Uh, Howard would go to Millsap. Um How long did

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you go to? Two years? Two years, two years. What kind of classes did you take? Just general education? I wanted to be a football coach. What did you do after one summer I found a job the second year that was there and I was a part

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time job with Standard Oil Company. And before the summer was over they had promoted me to a uh, manager of a service station. And best I remember I think, well coaches School teachers, you see when you coached, you had to teach school to back in those

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days. I think they made $65 a month And I already got me a job making $105 and I knew then I should have went back to school. I wanted the job, I wanted the money and I quit. Why did you want the money? And the child?

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Was there anything special or were you dating somebody? Yes, dating your grandmother and we wanted to get married. When did you get married? You got married in 19 and 37. I was right after you. That was, well, I met her when I was still in school.

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You have another 1938. So you did need that job. Um What kind of class you took? General education do you remember any specific teachers? Well I had Dean Burns, who was he, what kind of person was he? He was real dedicated in his work. And what

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I remember about him most really was in the summertime. He'd make trips overseas someplace to visit and he'd come back to the schoolroom to tell about his trips over there about his summer vacations things. But he always said he was, would yearn to get back to

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studying of the textbooks, which we couldn't understand. He wanted to get back setting and I didn't understand why he wouldn't stay. Where did he teach? You said where he taught english. I don't know that I had any subject that I like more than other. Unless it

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was math. Did you have from that? I don't know. I had that we was required to take one foreign language and it took spanish and I thought I could remember his own name, but I can't uh, the teacher that taught us spanish, but I can't, I

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can't remember his name, but he, he was only out of college a couple of years when he was teaching us seemed like he was on, y'all's Yeah, it just seems like he's are same age, you know, almost. Um, did you have any special teacher? You like

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one special one? Well I had, no, not, not, I don't know one that I'd say that I like any better than the others. They, you know, like teachers are now they have different characteristics and different features and things and, but we, we kind of looked up

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to all the teachers we thought it was, we thought they had accomplished a lot. Be a teacher. Um, and you, you were going to school and all the teachers, there. Was there any evidence of depression affecting howard cut. I didn't have any money. but they didn't

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anybody else have any money. Uh It was the deepest part of the depression almost I guess the deepest part of depression would probably be 19 and 30 two or three. But I had never had grown up without having any money. And so it wasn't all that

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difficult to go to school without any money because didn't anybody else have anything and we managed to we managed very well without it. We never had had any, we didn't know what it was to have. It wasn't like having something to somebody taking something away from

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you. You just never had had it. And when you did get a little money uh just like the first job I had their most money I ever made in my life. You kind of, you go crazy with. Well it's uh it's just going through a cycle,

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you know? And then two then Roosevelt started some projects and programs that really got us out of the depression. And then Yeah and then well the war brings on. Uh huh. Really clears up unemployment and stuff like that. Um They mentioned in the Crimson about a

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certain water fountain, do you know what they're talking about? They were joking around about a water fountain house. Everybody needed water and they couldn't get a certain place. No, I don't remember water fountain. Well it seemed like I was reading in the Crimson and I have

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one water fountain for the whole campus and everybody would stand in line at the water fountain. They had a water fountain out in the woods out on the campus. Oh but I don't remember a whole lot about it. I remember it was out there and that's

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where we went to get water. You didn't have fountains all around the halls. Where was the cafeteria? And it was down across 2nd avenue from the campus. You have to go like you have to go down to Second Avenue and then cross Second Avenue and it

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was in the building it was rented. It wasn't didn't have enough room the buildings to have a cafeteria. Yes it was. Well it's been so long. I don't know you nowadays it seems like a lot of people playing about just wondering. I don't remember not liking

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it. Let's put it that way. Um what would be the most natural thing you could think about to say about Howard thing you remember? Well it I was only there two years but I think yeah me going to Howard College really ah made me realize that

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I should have more education And I've been out of school I guess about 10 years and I decided I wanted to be in the engineer. So I started back to school and studied about seven more years. But I believe I believe going to Howard college made

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me realize that I should have an education. I know you it seems to be evidence a lot and your daughters and your granddaughter. But always that was our goal really was have our Children get a college degree and both of them now have a master's degree

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and our daughter and your mother is working on higher degree. Yeah. Some of them call it a into it to work into a doctrine, see how is what puts so much emphasis on education for you. Well, I uh like the most memorable thing remember things I

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think about my stay at Howard College was that it taught me in my early life that the value of an education that was and I kept and I kept that in mind and and still went ahead and got further education and I went, I was in

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school about six years after I'd been out of Howard seven or 8 years and qualified to for a, to be a registered professional engineer in Alabama and also registered in the state of florida, in which the money that I could make after I got registered yes

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more uh proved to me more that my Children and grandchildren should get an education and that's been there. Uh my wife and I goal really is to try to assist in getting Children education education is besides, it's good to have an education, it's security. And if

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I've read a lot of articles where they researched the value what high school student can do and college student and adopted over a lifetime. The amount of money that you make very so widely uh and two you have to have the money to have a comfortable

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living and to do the things you need to do. So I couldn't, well like yourself can impress anymore on you than education and what what you're doing. I think you realize that that's what I was trying to get out because all my life, you and grandmother

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and mother and daddy, everybody's getting education. I was just wondering what made you want. It's just the difference between the type living that you want, your level of living. You just can't have the finer things without an education. And now some people, you can read that

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where a man made a millionaire that didn't go to high school, you know? But that was so far between, it's just not, it's just you just need to have an education if you want to have a comfortable standard of living. So you wanted an education to,

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well you wouldn't have to worry about, well I don't think he ever quit worrying about him. But I wanted you to have an education to where you would have an opportunity if you don't have an education, you're limited in what you're fixing to do. If you

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suppose that you didn't finish high school, you'd be limited to possibly minimum wage work, but you got an education that gives you an opportunity that don't mean that uh you are going to take full advantage of it but it does give you an opportunity to but

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that's what I wanted my Children and grandchildren to have as an opportunity to compete with people four jobs. And of course when you get your job that makes your security Howard started. This gave me the opportunity. Well it Howard College, I think when I from from

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the time that I was there made me realize what an education meant to people. Ah my father and mother never did urged me to go to school. I didn't, they assisted me if I wanted to try to do something. But oh I don't think either one

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of them realized the benefit of college degree. What happened were you in high school and Howard just came out and saw you playing well. When I was in high school I was captain of the football team in high school. Okay

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this is side to, We were talking about high school and how, how you found out about Howard or how they found out about Captain ah played high school, I played football in high school in my last year in high school we won every game. So there

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was about three or 4 maybe five of of team members that got scholarships in college. And I think there's only one got a scholarship to Alabama. And the next thing that we knew about at Albertville because it was about 100 mile radius of Birmingham was Birmingham

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Southern was a methodist sponsored college? Howard was a baptist sponsored college. So mhm. First I was going to go to Birmingham Southern but when uh the coach at Birmingham Southern, when I talked to the coach of Birmingham Southern, he had filled up his uh scholarship and

00:32:40.830 - 00:32:59.370

giving them all out. So I come out to Howard, they had not given all of theirs out and they gave me one and Southern and Howard had come out and offered what they do, they send a representative around and talked to all of them people, all

00:32:59.370 - 00:33:14.990

of the players and then they invite them to come down for an interview and they didn't mention that certain scholarships were about Yeah. Were you methodist? Yeah, I was a methodist at that time. I'm a baptist now, but I was a methodist at that time. So

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your parents were, my parents were Methodists but when I married, my wife was baptist and your mother wanted to join the baptist church. And yeah then junior wanted to join the baptist church. So my wife was already a baptist but all four of us was baptized

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at the same time. 85th Street Baptist Church. This street. Brother Hester. He finished Howard about that time. He was the pastor. It 8/5 street. When did you? When you got baptized? That was after mother and brother Hester is still with the baptist organization I believe maybe

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somewhere in texas. So you mother and Benny and you and grandmother all got baptized at the same time when you were in college. Did you go? I mean they in Crimson, they mentioned that raheem about this church was the church that most of the people went

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to. Did you go there or did grandmother go there and she was going to Woodlawn babies And uh at that particular time I didn't have a church that I was going to regularly and after we married and moved to 85th Street at our Children, We went

00:35:01.320 - 00:35:28.050

to 85th Street for several years before we all joined. Oh where were you married at Alabama? Why were you married to Nashville? I don't know. I mean you and grandmother both were living in Birmingham. You got married in Nashville with somebody there that no, we just

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decided to go. Did you love, I don't know any of this. I was just asking, we didn't load, but we decided to get married. We didn't have a church wedding or anything like that. I know all grandmothers felt this thing like you so they must have

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been and supported. I know it's got at the funeral, they all wanted to say hi to you. Mother said that they liked um chapel at Howard. Did you have to go every day or uh once a week. I've forgotten seemed like to me it was once

00:36:14.150 - 00:36:37.190

a week you were, you were you required to, your mother was required were required to um, I read in the Crimson the newspaper that they had switched from a six day schedule to a five day schedule or something like that. Like they used to have classes

00:36:37.250 - 00:37:01.610

on saturday. Yeah. I don't know. It seems like to me we We just had classes five days. And uh now we would practice football on saturday when we didn't have a game. But generally our games were on saturday. Yeah. Ah we would we would practice on

00:37:01.610 - 00:37:25.410

saturday with during football season. So you don't remember that? That change in there. I think it may have been right before you got there. It might have been I don't remember it. Okay. What was the bulldog Grill? Do you remember that bulldog grill? It was just

00:37:25.410 - 00:37:56.610

a little bitty kind of a hangout where you could buy soft drinks and candy and uh huh. A few little things you buy hamburger. Yeah, they had hamburgers. Really didn't have much of anything. It's kind of a little hangout for the kids, the students and you'd

00:37:56.610 - 00:38:20.320

go down if you had a nickel, you could go down and drank a soda with the rest of it. I sat there and see where where was that? It was on the corner of Second Avenue and 77th Street, 77, That was on the streetcar line. They

00:38:20.320 - 00:38:39.570

also mentioned something called stevens food. You know what that was. No, I don't. And the Co op Duck in. Well now that was the Co op Duck in was the same thing that we just talked about. It just changed names. Oh they just changed the name

00:38:39.580 - 00:39:01.450

or they used to names for. Yeah, but I don't know which one is first now, but I think it was the same location. It just changed ownership or something. What was Sherman charlotte? I don't know unless it was they had big old trees in the campus.

00:39:02.110 - 00:39:16.820

Yeah, they mentioned the crimson like mother said it was a big oak tree and they took a twig and plans plans that the new campus. But back then they seem to be talking about something like everybody went there and gossip and stuff. Well it it was

00:39:16.820 - 00:39:42.680

a place that they gathered on the campus under the old trees. There was several big old trees. Um Were there places that at night you go and sit on campus? I don't think so. The benches. Uh Sometimes I say we had a gym, we have basketball

00:39:42.680 - 00:40:09.970

games in the gym at night sometimes. But if they did I don't remember, do you remember that night? Yeah there were stunt nights without forgotten just about. But but they were stunt nights now. They have what is called steps saying? I don't think they had that

00:40:12.310 - 00:40:36.260

because I took another step. You remember coach Bill or coach Ray and Bill Bancroft Bancroft was a freshman coach when I started and then he became varsity coach the next year. Is he the one that was coaching in Alabama. He was no, he was he was

00:40:36.270 - 00:40:59.870

assistant coach, freshman coach. He just had two coaches. one was a freshman coach in the varsity coach and the varsity coach was named Shorty Prokes, Shorty what? He was about six ft eight and they called him Shorty, that was the varsity varsity coach and he left

00:40:59.870 - 00:41:22.290

and went to Northwestern. How many? Southwestern? Okay, Shorty, he left Howard and went to Southwestern. We used to play Southwestern. It was a college up in Memphis, not Northwestern, Northwestern in evanston Illinois. This was Southwestern and he left Howard and went to Southwestern and then Billy

00:41:22.290 - 00:41:55.590

Bancroft was made head coach. But Billy band crowd. Now short approach was the coach that gave me the gave me my scholarship that he left the next year. He left the next year and went to Southwestern and Billy Bancroft became a head coach. Okay. And then

00:41:55.600 - 00:42:23.170

um who was a freshman? You know, who was freshman coach at? No, I've forgotten. Okay. Um in the newspaper they had two terms and I didn't know what they meant. I was gonna ask you one was terms, one was called rats, rats, rats. I wouldn't have

00:42:23.170 - 00:43:00.000

liked that. And F. R. O. S. H. Was another word for that. Also rats and frosh. Were you in any kind of fraternity? Yes. I had several fraternities. Remember which one it was Gamma was the one that I pledged to. I looked up in your annual

00:43:00.000 - 00:43:23.400

and had one under it. But they don't write it out in english right out in greek and I can't read. It was, what did you have to get through an initiation initiation? Oh they had several things, but I've forgotten now what what they were, but they

00:43:23.410 - 00:44:03.960

had initiation day. Uh, and they had several fraternity homes around. Did you ever, did you fight to have their own opportunity when the homes run by people and some of the students state at those homes? Housemother. So howard? Um, nobody had money? Some impression didn't really

00:44:03.970 - 00:44:27.800

seem to affect, well not having money then would certainly not, you couldn't compare with not having money now because uh, then didn't any of the students have any money. Some very few might have had some, you know, but very little. But the majority of the students

00:44:27.800 - 00:44:45.720

were just, just didn't have any money, what they're doing with the football players. The coach would try to get the football players a job in the summertime. And he would mostly got a lot of the job of the Goodyear plant in Gadsden and around some of

00:44:45.720 - 00:45:12.190

the industrial plants here. But it seems that they never did get around to the freshman to get them a job. So we had to go out and try to find our own. Yeah, the first summer I had a job loading watermelons and working for a produce

00:45:14.920 - 00:45:41.430

produce man, had a produced garden and then the second the second summer when I was working there is where I met the person that worked for Standard Oil that offered me the job When I was working the first summer I met the man worked for standard

00:45:41.430 - 00:46:05.520

oil that offered me the job 2nd summer. And so you already had a job lined up a part time job. And before that summer was over I had a full time job. You were you recommended by the proudest man to the other guy. Well I produced

00:46:05.520 - 00:46:23.030

man. I worked for him half a day and he told me to come back and start working regular. And uh there's a job. I worked part time for about a month and then they gave me a regular job during the year. Was your scholarship full? No

00:46:23.030 - 00:46:41.690

it wasn't full. It was just for the tuition tuition. So you have to buy your books. Yeah you have to buy your books. Um Did you have a job during the year? How did you buy your book? Sometimes you meet another student that had a book.

00:46:41.690 - 00:47:05.460

And you all would share the book. And then my father would Try to buy me one or 2 books. But I took some classes without a book. Was it? All right? I got by them. But you need the books but sometimes you couldn't get the books

00:47:05.460 - 00:47:24.830

you couldn't get the money to buy and the scholarship didn't furnish him. Did the coaches help you out studying? Well, the coaches would try to get you a job even during the year? Well, no, really you can't practice football and work and go to school. You

00:47:24.840 - 00:47:45.340

can't do all three of those. But when, during the summers when they try to get you a job and then you can save that money to last you through the next year and you've already worked the year before. I had, well I didn't say a lot,

00:47:45.350 - 00:48:11.550

but I had, I had some money. Did the coaches have any tutors or anybody help you study? So you just roll on your own to get those classes. Was football really emphasized back then, football is a lot different than it is now. They had to finance

00:48:11.550 - 00:48:26.610

the athletic program through the money from the college. You didn't take in enough money at the game to even pay for the uniforms, I don't believe. But back then you didn't have many people going to the games and then the cost of the ticket was very

00:48:26.610 - 00:48:51.090

low. So the expense for your athletic department would have to come out of the general budget most of it rather than from the ticket sales. After a while when you started getting bigger crowds, ball games and it was different. First, they just did have enough money

00:48:51.090 - 00:49:12.430

to buy the uniforms where they do you know where they got the scholarship money. Well what they would do. See the scholarship money really was not out of pocket money. You just didn't pay for the tuition, you just didn't pay what they do, They gave you

00:49:12.430 - 00:49:33.030

a scholarship, but it was just for your tuition and really they weren't right now, some, they did have some football players that were on a full scholarship that had their dumped room paid for. So the tuition back then didn't pay all the teacher's salary. I mean,

00:49:33.370 - 00:49:50.480

they weren't paying any extra money by giving me a scholarship. Well, they didn't take any, see if I hadn't gone to college, I wouldn't have paid any tuition, but I did go to college and didn't pay any tuition. So that out of money, uh, out of

00:49:50.480 - 00:50:08.660

pocket money for the school was the same. But the only thing to do if you had too many of those and you'd have to hire extra teachers. Right? So nowadays, whoever they give a scholarship, they have to pay the teacher that much money, I believe. I

00:50:08.670 - 00:50:29.970

don't know, I'm not, I'm not familiar with the way they act like a skosh. It's really long. That makes sense. Whether you got it or not, they wouldn't have, you wouldn't be paying them any money. So it was, they were sponsored by the churches. Howard was

00:50:29.970 - 00:50:53.720

sponsored by the baptist church and Southern was sponsored by the methodist churches. So that's where they actually would get their money. And then to, after people graduated from Howard and Southern, then they, when they become alumni's, they would donate money. And um, I understand that most

00:50:53.720 - 00:51:16.250

of the people that graduated from Howard were employed, that um they had a good tradition of higher education, passing tests, had two Rhodes scholars. Did you, did that affect you? I mean, was that emphasized? They had when I was in school the most, I guess if

00:51:16.250 - 00:51:52.110

you call it a ah person with the most notoriety was Gail Jackson, was that the actress, her name was Gail Fitzpatrick, but she was Gail Jackson Patrick Patrick in Hollywood and she was an actor and then became a producer. She produced Perry Mason, Gilpatrick produced and

00:51:52.110 - 00:52:21.580

mason, but she was in school same time I was and she achieved all right. Howard really like that. I mean, because they'd always say right, but when she was in school, her name was Gail Fitzpatrick and she changed it to Gail Patrick. Well, that was the

00:52:21.580 - 00:52:51.200

one that was most widely known after I got out of school coming through. But there was, you look too, you look through the information, if you get from uh, from Sanford now, you look back and you see people that are really make good their lives, you

00:52:51.200 - 00:53:27.020

know, contributed a lot to them to the communities where they work and you think Howard, yes, it was and uh, I ever Birmingham Southern had the same type of the same county, the same reputation are the same, wow, it's howard, they were both outstanding schools in

00:53:27.020 - 00:53:49.790

Birmingham should be proud of both of them. Another even today you support Sanford which is called Sanford now and that a lot of your Children have gone there and everything. And did you support this? I mean you want them to go? Oh yeah. Why I wanted

00:53:49.790 - 00:54:12.440

to go to Howard? Well I just thought it was a good school. Hi. Ah well university of Alabama is gonna wonderful job here in Birmingham. But I still think it the environment and it is different at Howard Southern then. I mean Sanford and Southern and it

00:54:12.440 - 00:54:40.980

is that you baby I've taken some courses at U. A. B. And have been yes speaker over Sanford to some of the classes. But to me the the campus environment is different. It's Sanford than it is at U. A. B. Yeah. Well I don't know unless

00:54:40.980 - 00:55:12.450

you would just take the setting and it just seems to me that it's a different environment. Um Do people sing more friendly or? Uh huh. Well I don't know that. I could answer that. You know I've I've been around both campuses and uh and to uh

00:55:12.460 - 00:55:32.140

gravy has contributed a whole lot to the Birmingham area. You'll be Birmingham. And a lot of people have got an education that could not have gotten it and at one time they couldn't get the night classes and things that Howard or Southern but now Sanford and

00:55:32.150 - 00:55:57.840

Southern and often those night classes. Uh maybe has filled a spot for Birmingham area and so has the Sanford and Southern, I think Birmingham as a whole. Should be proud of all three of them. But I my preferences of course is gonna be Sanford before we

00:55:57.840 - 00:56:10.930

wrap this up in the newspaper. Was one of the things I read, I want to ask you about it was they called it the Battle of the Marne, you know what that was. I don't know what it was. They said each year they had the battle

00:56:10.930 - 00:56:31.350

of okay, I didn't know what it was and mentioned it in the prints. If there was anything else, do you have anything to say or anything else you'd like to add before me. Not think of in re ia I am glad that I did have two

00:56:31.350 - 00:56:54.230

years. I would, I think that helped mold the way my life it's been and I'll always be grateful for that. I'll always be grateful for the scholarship they gave. If if you hadn't gone to Howard, do you think you would have followed through on your education?

00:56:54.980 - 00:57:21.790

Probably not because I didn't have really, it's time I entered Howard. I uh I thought at the time that I should have more education and uh, I thought that I wanted to be a football coach and uh, that was the best way to accomplish it. But

00:57:21.800 - 00:57:46.680

I got more than that out of going to Howard. It, it made me realize more just the two years I was there that I really needed more education and I went ahead and got it. But oh, I think Howard had a lot to do with, with

00:57:46.680 - 00:58:13.390

me choosing my career, although Howard didn't have a degree in engineering, but that's finally what I wanted to be, was an engineer. And since you feel like Howard led you into following your education, they made me realize really, I think what an education would mean to

00:58:13.400 - 00:58:40.700

you. And I started just about as soon as I could start. I got married as soon as I could go back to school. I did, you've got certain obligations after getting married, but you have to handle Um, yeah, Children one. Did you go back to school

00:58:40.700 - 00:59:06.340

full time? I worked part time. It took me nearly seven more years. Um, grandma mentioned that used to fly places and go to school what I did in, in my work, I had to have special training in certain fields. So I had, I went to Northwestern

00:59:06.340 - 00:59:34.480

University, evanston Illinois. I went to the University of Louisville and then I, well I went twice to Northwestern University and oh, those were special courses in my field of engineering and um, you went to Northwestern University, there was a U A. B, but it didn't give

00:59:34.480 - 01:00:07.110

an engineering degree. I took some subjects at U A B and I took some at auburn, their extension here investment and I finally got all of those together with the the registration Alabama registration board, the one that qualifies you for a registered professional engineer. I went

01:00:07.110 - 01:00:22.680

before them and asked them how could I complete my studies to whether it admit me to an examination. See the engineer's examination is kind of like a bar examination and a lawyer and get a degree but you still have to pass the bar and then in

01:00:22.690 - 01:00:38.570

engineering you get your degree but you still have to pass a uh two day examination in Montgomery. So I went before the board and told them what I had and asked them what I needed and they said that I could get the rest of my subjects

01:00:38.570 - 01:01:19.270

from the International Correspondent School in Scranton, pennsylvania International correspondence school in pennsylvania. And so you could get it from there. Uh and I took a lot of my engineering classes from there. So when I passed all of that I went back before them. Good that was

01:01:19.280 - 01:01:38.270

Tyrone stove. So you went, you got the rest of course is from the International Correspondent School. And I carried him back to the board of registration in Montgomery. And they admitted me to the examination and I passed the two day examination and become a registered professional

01:01:38.270 - 01:01:53.080

engineer in the state of Alabama. And then I applied to be a registered engineer in the state of florida. And I passed that And I'm registered in two states in Alabama and Florida. It took you almost eight years. It took me almost eight years just to

01:01:53.080 - 01:02:13.240

get qualified to go into the examination room. So you feel like howard is what led you to all this? I think that they had a part in making me realize that I needed more education. But since I've become an engineer, uh, I have earned more money.

01:02:14.150 - 01:02:19.580

I have a higher standard of living and I'm was more.