Hodges, Mary Louise Shirley

these Hodges for the Sanford University oral history program. By Beneath a smith at her home in vestavia on november 14th 1985. Mrs Hodges. Where are you from? I'm from Birmingham. Where do you work? Don't work work in the house, worked all my life in the house.

House work, house wife. Are your parents still living? My mother. Is was your family well known in the community where my father was a dentist. In the Woodward building in downtown Birmingham. And he received his 50 european and 55 year pin from the american dental society

in the Alabama dental society. So yeah I guess he was, he was known as a dentist as a good dentist. What denomination are you baptist? Do you have any brothers or sisters? One, I have one brother. Um Did any other members of your family attend Howard?

Yes I had a sister who attended Howard but she is dead now. She died in her forties several years ago. Um Did any of your other family members attend any other college? Uh Well yes my brother's friends with the new york University School of Medicine. Uh

But he did not attend. He did not go ahead to school. What made you choose Howard? You want? The truth. The real truth. I was crazy about this young preacher I was going away to, I was going to Columbia to study journalism or to Stephen's College

in Missouri where my great great grandfather was president at one time. He was a professor of greek and Hebrew and later became president of William Jewel College and stevens later but I got cold feet. I was real young and I didn't, I didn't want to leave

home. So my roommate and I were neighbors and we do you think you can hear that? And my roommate and my neighbor who lived one door from me and I went away to college and we went 14 miles away because Howard College was on the Eastlake

campus. And so we lived in the dormitory at Mamie mel smith Hall and we only saw our folks on weekends. So we didn't live at home. We lived on the campus, even though we both lived in Birmingham. Okay. Um did you have any influences in college?

Oh, do you mean people that influenced me? Oh yes. Many many people did because I loved Major Davis, I think I think he was a wonderful man. And we kept up the friendship all our lives with the Davis family and his daughter Betty Eshelman is a

good friend of mine, she's a lawyer and I was in school with his daughter Betty Betty and his daughter Dorothy. But Betty was closer in my class and my friend and Miss Anne boy, it was my, my uh freshman english teacher and she once asked us

if to the first question she gave us this little test on the first day I'll never forget in my life, I have a very keen sense of smell and she said I want you to liken this smell what smells like new mown hay or grass. And

I just thought I said well it just smells like hot tea that's steeping. And she said that's just right and I got a or whatever I was supposed to do but mr any boy it was a wonderful grammarian, wonderful english teacher, Dean Percy P. Burns who

taught taught us Shakespeare and english marvelous man, marvelous uh sort of like an old english uh a gentleman, very formal. Doctor Irons who is still there was my history professor, I loved dr Aaron and he to this day calls me Miss Shirley sometimes that was my

maiden name, last name was Shirley. Uh He was just a real inspiration dr James L Break Field was the professor of a head of the biology department and he was very in a real inspiration. He was a marvelous orator, gave talks all over the world. Was

president of Civitan International Travel all over the world and would entertain us about his travels as well as our biology uh lessons. But now those are a few that I can think of that influenced me or that I thought a great deal of. I love dr

Acton who was my french professor. Uh I'm just trying to think. He was a funny man but knew his french very well. We had a lot of fine professors at Howard college. Um What was your major? Well my major was journalism and I had to leave

howard college and go to Alabama, my junior year to get enough journalism to have a major, I had a double, I had a double major english journalism and my degree reads english dash journalism and I had a mountain in french um, your major, oh, english journalism

and a minor in french and art. I love lots of things. I would love to tell this. At one time I thought I would go into medicine. Like my father and my, my brother did and I signed up for pre med my first year and I

was elected to the honorary medical premed, whatever that is. And but when we got to the end of the year and we, we, uh, when we cut up the frog and then when, and I didn't like that much. I didn't much like the earthworm and when

we got to the frog, I didn't like that at all. And when, then when I went in the lab and saw the next year, the next course was Cat Anatomy. I've changed completely back to journalism, which was what I thought at first. Um, I think I

would too. Um, what were your feelings for freshman year? My feelings, I guess our freshmen feel a little strange and lost when they first get there. But I had been oriented a little bit, uh, had been taken out on the campus and I don't know why

they chose me, but I was uh, I was, my picture was put in the Birmingham news as a new freshmen coming in and then in the front of the, the annual of the year that I started as a freshman, they had a little boy who was,

whose parents had already enrolled him in Sanford and he was about five or six years old and he was, I think he was going to be a start school that year and his, his parents had enrolled him in in Howard College for what, 15 years later,

12, whatever time, 16 years later I guess that he would go in, know how many years do we go to? 12 years? We go to school before you go to college. Uh and he had, they had enrolled him. So they said freshman for whatever year that

would be. And then this freshman is coming in and our pictures in the beginning of the annual that year, just on the front of the piece, in the front page. So I had been on the campus and as I say, I went with this fellow from

our church who was going to be a minister, who didn't turn out to be a minister and uh well I was like 15 years old when I was going with him and when he was one of my first fellas and I went to the campus a

lot with him to the basketball games and things and I got to like Howard College very much. And I was also went to Birmingham Southern with some other folks and like Southern and Howard and I was debating for a while but we were baptist and I

really kind of followed the fellow out with what was registration like registration. I really don't remember it being bad at all. I don't remember, I really don't remember the hullabaloo and all the that you have because we had so few students and I don't think there

will be four or 500 students. And I think I'm telling this right, I really don't think that would be maybe four or 500 when I went. So registration was not bad at all as long as you paid your bill. And I will say my I was

offered a scholarship and my father, my parents, my grandfather was a baptist minister. And we really felt that Howard College was not in good financial condition at that time it was not. And so I did not take the scholarship. I paid my full away. And that

was sort of what what we really felt like that uh we were able to do my, not that my father was wealthy at all, he was not hardly anybody paid their dental bills. But I mean sometimes they didn't but anyhow I did not take a scholarship

that I had been offered but I did uh he did pay my bills. So I don't remember that being made at all what professors like. We had some some excellent professors that I've already mentioned, Excellent and then we had some very dark In the Sociology Department,

in the Education Department. And I loved music and I had taken piano on the side for 17, well I was 16 years old, nearly not 17 years, but I had taken until I was 16 or 17 years old. And my teacher said that I should uh

she thought that I should continue my music but that I should go into something that like get a teacher's certificate if I want to teach music later or teach anything or teach french that I could not make any money in music. And that's been the regret

of my life. I'm sorry I did not go on in piano and really get my major in that. But uh I uh had lots of good professors but I had to go through education because I did get a teacher's certificate to teach in high school which

have a great certificate. That is because I never used it a day in my life. But uh the education department was very dull, very very dull as I found that it it has continued to be in many schools. The subject is rather dull, the courses that

teachers are required to take. But we had a delightful uh I had a delightful french teacher also dr Owens who did not stay very long who did not let us speak one word of english in the class. And he also talked spanish, he was very well

and I was crazy about J. F. For Arthur Mel who was who had no higher degree at all. He probably had an A. B. And that was all, but he was a professor of journalism and he was the editor of the Birmingham News. He was in

fact, he got to be senior editorial writer, he was an excellent writer, a very unusual man, very unusual and I kept in touch with him all his life. He died just a few years ago. Um we involved in any kind of organizations was you name it,

everything, I really was, I was involved in everything. I was in the uh the french Club, the journalism honorary, I was in Damascus, I wrote a column for the paper for the Crimson, I was on the editorial staff, I was in the right to tell this

in the Miss Sanford contest, the beauty contest several years. I did not win. But I was in there at that time, I had long curly black hair, so that's probably what I got in for. But let me see, oh I was in the B. S. U.

B. S. U Council. Oh honey, I was just in everything they did, I went to everything and I was in a sorority and I was in uh I don't know, I can't even tell you all the things, but I loved everything I did and I was

on the pep squad for the football games and I was on the oh, let me see. I was a band sponsor at one time. I've forgotten. I've really forgotten. Oh, I was just, I was I was a typical college girl. I really was. I just went

out for everything. What sport are you who do I have to tell this? Alright. I was an £80 My roommate now 80 pass. But you see, I thought by the time I transferred to uh that I went into journalism, I knew that I could not get

a degree in journalism. And so uh remained a pledge for a year. And so did my roommate because both of us thought we were going to another college and I did not want to be active because I did not know if I would want to be

in that same sorority or they didn't even have one at Stevens I think or wherever I was thinking about going. So I just let my pledge expire with the goodwill of, I've got plenty of friends. But then when I transferred, I did not go all the

way to Colombia or stevens and to see love ruined love ruled in my life. I had met my who is now my husband, my friend, my sophomore year, so I decided I would not leave him so far and I would not go away so far. So

I went to Alabama And when I got to Alabama, I did not, I had a real good friend who was a fine you and I did not know the 80 passed. They were very kind to have me over to their house, but I did not think

that I would ever come back to Howard College. I thought I was gone forever. So I pledged um, you and I was initiated. Then I came back to Howard College my senior year because I married my junior year And came back to our college, my senior

year and there I was on the campus with all these five years that had been our arch rivals when I was in 85, which was sort of an awkward situation, but we remained friends and I really was not very active in this sorority because by that

time I was married. Well, what was the Greek system like? Probably a lot like it is now. Uh, it's selective. It's undemocratic in a way. I think there are a lot of good things to say about the system and I think there are a lot of

bad things to say about it. Uh, anyone who's left out when I was in Alabama, we had a terrible experience down there with the girl who was left out. Uh, just and you always feel bad about the ones, but it was not nearly as bad, I

believe when I was in college because almost anybody that really wanted to get in a sorority could get in one and find people that they liked it just, it was not nearly as selective as it is now were a lot of the students involved in the

greek system. Yes. A lot of them, we had a pretty full quota because I'm sure not as many now because there weren't as many students on the campus at Howard College. Did they seem to dominate most activities? No, they did not. They definitely not the year

that I was not in a sorority. My sophomore year, I had just as many. I did just as many things. In fact, I was never a very good sorority member because I always had an excuse to go that I always said, oh, the paper needs me.

I really did. I always had some, some business for the paper to write or to get a little things for my column and I wrote for the Birmingham news, the Howard College News. And then when, uh, john Rogers was a professor of spanish and he also

was the, uh, the public relations official at the public relations director at Howard College. Now, Howard College was so poor in those days. They really were, we had no endowment. The plaster fell off the walls on some of your, in your classrooms. They really did. I

have had the plaster follow on my desk from the city major Davis was struggling to get it back on, the country had just been through the depression and was in the beginning of the war and um they were trying to get on their feet and uh

they could not afford a full time director of publicity, publicity of Public relations, I should say. So as a journalism major, uh I was uh an unpaid assistant to Professor Rogers who john Rogers who was directing the publicity. And we had, I learned how to call

the Birmingham news when we had something special and to get the people that would be in the pictures and to get the pictures lined up to place them in there and then right who was in the pictures and what they were doing and why we wanted.

And I called the News and incidentally, um no, I guess I was going to tell you that our Cook who owns Cook publications in his head of of uh the shades Valley, the Sun papers, not just shades valleys and all the sun papers was a photographer

for the Birmingham News, but it was, he had already left the Birmingham news by that time, that was when I was in high school. But anyhow, Professor Rogers uh quit right in the middle of, I guess it was my side at the end of my freshman

year probably. And um or during my, during my freshman year, he quit the college and quit teaching to run for the city commission in Birmingham. And that's what they had at that time. They had nobody to hire in the middle of the year for director Director

of Public relations. So they asked me if I would just do the writing that I was doing and call the papers when we had something special going on. And they were very nice to me and they didn't, they didn't discriminate against me as a student. And

then I was put on the payroll and you'd love to hear what my salary was. It was five cents a column inch. And so I still, my father still paid my tuition. I did not take it. This was my money and uh some some months I

made $20. Some months I made $30 a month. But that was fun. It was just spending money. It was, it was uh, it was just fine. And I and I love so I got some good experience for nearly two years during the publicity. Okay. Um what

was the ratio between men and women? With more men? I am not aware of what that was. I'm not aware that there were more men or more women. Now when the navy program came to the college, there were more men at that time. But I would

say probably uh about equal girls. I really can't say um what was important in student life then. Oh sitting down under Sherman oaks with your fellow and going down to the Okey dokey and having a chili dog and uh studying on the side, playing a little

bridge with you at the sorority house. There was a bridge game going all the time. We had such a nice innocent life. We really did. There was not drinking in the sorority houses at all. And if you smoked, oh that really you, that was but you

were wicked. If you smoke, that was really not. It was looked down on uh we had dances. What was your question? Give me your question again. What was most important? Most important? Alright. Uh, we had certainly, we had a religious atmosphere on the campus. A lot

of us went to morning watch. That was a devotional period early in the morning. You got up before practically breakfast time as I remember. Uh, you went to morning watch and a lot of us did that. There were a lot of fine people. There were a

lot of young men that were going in the ministry. There were a lot of young women that were going to the mission field and there were a lot of sinners. It was a good general mixture, but a healthy wholesome atmosphere. Nobody had any money. Believe me,

you didn't, it was a really event. If if my roommate or I could get our mothers cars to take to the school. We are mothers being neighbors. Two doors down. We get our mothers cars to take to school. We get them one at a time and

just loved having a car in the case, but everybody didn't have, nobody had a car. Very few had their own automobiles. Um But the interest, everything we love, we all went to the dance and we all great football, great interest in football. When are you gonna

get to what I can tell you about our big rivalry between Birmingham Southern and and howard college today, we're going to get to that. Alright, okay. How long did classes last? A Tuesdays and Thursdays and Saturdays to an hour and a half classes And Mondays, Wednesdays

and Fridays. One hour. I didn't know you went on saturday. Well it seems to me that sometimes we went on saturday. I've really forgotten. It seems to me that we used to have some saturday classes but mostly I think it was Tuesday and thursday that we

have the classes monday Wednesday and friday. And our Tuesday 30. I don't know, it seems like after the navy people got there, they had saturday places. I forgot. I'm sorry, I forgot. But I do know that one hour and a half on Tuesday and thursday because

that's when I had a dull, dull sociology class and and anyhow I won't go into that or on education class. What were the buildings and the classes from? I think I've already told you falling down but they were really wonderful and now we would call them

antiques the gym that we had a nice gymnasium. That was I don't know when I was in high school. It was it was there when I was in high school and it was a new looking uh and a nice building. Oh the science building, that everything,

not everything was falling down. But renfro how the boys dormitory was more or less following down, we had to walk a couple blocks. Uh First Avenue was set to seven, oh I've forgotten 77th Street and First Avenue to maybe mel smith hall, which was later made

into a hospital. Uh But they were, it was nice, it was nice and well heated and modern and everything, but a lot of the buildings were real, real old. Um You said you lived on campus And what were the dorms like? Well that was the dorm,

it was one dorm that was maybe mel smith holland. We had we had sweets and you had, let me see how many bedrooms, two baths in the suite of living room, three bedrooms or four bedrooms on the sweet gee, How could have forgotten that Anyhow. They

were very comfortable, very nice, nice big living room where we kept a bridge game going quite a bit. And they were they were very nice, very nice, more spacious than you have now. Much more spacious than you have now. Yes, very small. Now I'm horrified at

those. Now, where did the students eat? We ate, we ate at the dormitory and eight maybe mel smith, all the men from the boys that lived in the dormitory hall And we had a bookstore. And Miss Bookman ran the bookstore and they had wonderful pimento cheese

sandwiches grilled. And every time I walk in the anyways I'm putting on your pimento cheese sandwich right now that she knew I loved that I had it every day for lunch every day that I didn't go to the doctor. Uh Then we went down to the

okey dokey sandwich bar which was about two blocks down off the campus. And had I think chili dogs don't even like hot dogs. But I think we had chili dogs and hamburgers, things like that. They did not have Mcdonald's and Jack's hamburgers. And although none of

those short order places, this was a short order place. The okey dokey. What was it like going to school during the war? Oh well we had ration books I do believe for shoes and everything. Oh don't ask me. You're asking me so far back. I can

what was uh gasoline was rationed by this time we had a car. Uh You were worried about the loved ones that were overseas and then the war. You were very worried about the war. But you went right on with your classes? I that's all I can

remember. Did many boys from Howard go to go to war a lot. Yes they did. Yes. What were they like when they came back? I wasn't there when they came back. So I Did. Howard change any according to the Yes. I really think that the financial

uh, status of, of Howard College was improved because of the Navy boys being there. What did we call it? That these five or something? 12, 12, 12 and number. Um, I think that the fortunes of Samford of Howard College were improved. The economy went up. People

had jobs, they had things that they had money to spend and more students came and the, the, and I believe that the property was purchased about, about that time. During that time, I believe in the late forties and early fifties, the prop, it was purchased and

realizing that they had outgrown the campus, There was no place to expand. You probably know that. And so that was a masterstroke that the trustees bought the property on lake Shore Drive. What was the, Don't ask me? I don't know. They got ready. They study, They

don't ask me about that. I really don't know. It was a naval program. It was a training before they actually went into the naval training. It was the, what you would call school practice if it was football. You know, it was learning that whatever they're a

background sort of sort of, but it was for the Navy. Um, what was required of students and religious courses. Everyone had to take one year bible. Oh, and I should have said, I thoroughly enjoyed Doctor Davidson, Vern Davidson, who is just, I believe he was a

professor then and he was, he's retired now. He's living here in Birmingham and I've kept up with him and his wife. They're in our church now. Uh He was a grand professor of bible. Very interesting. Professor bible. I love the, I was glad I was required.

We took comparative religion. We had we had the comparison before God of the gospels and had the text. Oh and then I believe that we were required to attend chapel several times a week and we usually had excellent speakers. We we did not dislike going. It

was a popular thing. It was not unpopular to go at all. Um That's about all I can remember of the religious studies that were required. What church did you attend? I tell you the first baptist church in Birmingham because that's where I was raised all my

life. So I I did not, I went home on the weekends, hardly ever did I stay at the camp on the campus. We really had to take our mothers cars back on the weekend, whichever one of us had to have a car. Um How are the

sports at? How low the sports now. I was a great sports fan at that time. I am not now whatsoever. I outgrew it. I guess. I should be sorry to say, oh we love the football games, we love the basketball games. We have supported them just

beautifully like you do now. And we had a grand rivalry with Birmingham Southern. And now that's before Birmingham Southern quit? They quit football while I was in college? I believe. I believe it was while I was in college. They did they during that time or the

war came along with what I've forgotten. But while we were in I remember my freshman year, they were still playing football. And we you know that we would light up, we would collect all kinds of wooden, anything, boxes, anything anybody was gonna throw away in crates

and go to grocery stores. And we would and that's what the freshmen had to do. They made us all collect everything for our bonfire. And on the big night before the Birmingham Southern game. Everybody at the bonfire had a big pep rally and it was in

Birmingham Southern did the same thing and we would owe whoever most it was always would go over to Birmingham Southern and try to ignite their bonfire before they got to stay the night or two before they, before they had really collected everything. I mean while they

had collected before they lighted it ignited it and they would do the same for us. And our bonfire was burned before it was time. And their bonfire was burned and a lot of our boys would paint red ages all over the buildings that burned them Southern

and they would try their best to get over and paint yellow bs, CS all over our buildings, which they did sometimes, but it was a grand rivalry. Very exciting, particularly for a freshman. Did you, you said you attended many of the football games. Did girls have

any part in sports? No, I don't think we did. We played in a mural, something. I think we played volleyball and I took swimming and horseback riding and I took that, I took horseback riding off campus and we took swimming at the old Birmingham athletic club.

So that, that's what I did for physical education. And I don't remember any other sports. I really don't, I just, I don't remember doing anything but taking that in that we did have to take physical education my freshman year. I know that I was in a

class and we were blue bloomers as I remember. I thought we, that's what we laughed and called them. That that's what our mothers called them, but they were a little short romper suits with elastic around the legs, you know. But anyhow, uh, and we were kind

of, we was kind of cute looking, they weren't like our mother bloomers were and I remember we were for tennis shoes and white socks and we did something and I've forgotten what it was, but I think maybe it was, it was volleyball. I've forgotten um, I

didn't know I could have forgotten so much that you're asking me, were there any minorities at howard? No, I'll just say that as far as I remember we had no minority groups Unless we had somebody from Japan. It just in the back of my mind, it

seems to me and oh I know we had a well we had some, we had a couple of french students franz will fare. His mother taught, oh and she was my music teacher. She was a wonderful woman. Mrs mrs Hester. We we said Wolfert, they were

from Belgium, they spoke french but other than I just don't believe, but we didn't look down on minorities, we really did and we just didn't happen to have them. How did you meet your husband? My goodness! I saw him at a football game, he played football

and he had come back to school when I had started and he really should have been out when I by the time I started but he had stayed out of school to game, wait to play football and to make some money. And so uh he really

had a full time job after he had a football injury and did not continue in football. But I met him just on the campus and he told he and he told me if I ever quit dating the fellow that I was dating, it was gonna be

a minister. He said if you ever quit dating him, I'm gonna ask you for a date and that's how I first I first met him and he was called little Hodges. He had an older brother who had been to Howard before. I did not know him,

he had played football and he was called Big Hodges? He was about 6, 2.5 or three and then next brother was called middle Hodges and he was 6, 3.5. And and little Hodges was only six ft tall. And so he was little Hodges and I didn't

know his name, I just knew he was Little Hodges and he didn't know my name was anything but Shirley because that was my maiden name, having three first names. Uh He just called me Miss Shirley, Shirley and he said Shirley, I'm gonna I'm gonna ask you

for a date. And I said okay, little Hodges one of these days, I might not date that fella anymore. So that's how I met him. Um did Howard have steps in them? Well We had some singing on the steps. We really did, but it was not

like that step sing really started on the steps, did you know? And it really started at candlelight dinner for the alumni now I think I'm telling this right that sometime during the 40s we all sang on the steps, those that could sing. I am not a

singer, I'm a player, not a singer. Um And I really think that it started for for a candlelight dinner and I I'm almost sure that's how it started. Um How did students get along with the faculty? Just like students always get along with their teachers, Love

some hate summer. Uh, but generally good, I would think were your classes large? No, they were not, no, they only my, by my freshman biology class was large and, and it was strictly a lecture type. I had very small classes. Some of my classes there weren't,

but about five students in my journalism place and I bet they weren't over seven in my french class ever at any one time. Our english classes are Shakespeare classes were, oh, I don't know, I would guess maybe 2025 sometimes. And the freshman biology class might have

had 50 in it. We had, that was required, but that was the largest class I ever was in. But mostly they were very small. Places, very much of a personal relationship with your professor and I loved and adored Howard loved it, loved it loved it all

my life. Had just a wonderful experience there. Um, how did people dress when you went to Howard? Crazy. No, we don't, we didn't dress like we, we didn't, we were, we did not wear any slacks, no, no jeans at all. We were Whoopi socks and no,

uh, saddle Oxfords. And I will, I'll never forget, I had a bright red wool spoke and I had at the same time. That's a very british, you know, it was blue and I felt like I just was dressing in Howard colors and I wore white socks

and those saddle Oxfords because I had my picture taken in and we wore sausage rolls on the top of our heads, we rolled out, we don't have bangs with mostly we wore sausages, I looked like I had two big sausages on my head and I had

kind of long curly hair, my hair was very curly. Uh we wore skirts and blouses and jackets. We were we were really uh I can't think we had what we would now call the preppy look. We wore little ties with little collars, you know, and uh

anyhow we were conservative dressers, but now you would think we were crazy wearing those full skirts and we had maybe the big skirts with a big felt poor along the front to dress up with strict the forties. Look, did women have a big role in college

life? Oh yes. Oh yes, we did. Oh yes. Um President of Panhellenic, of course, uh officers in the student body of student body officers, I would say we had, but I nearly always the editor of the yearbook was was a man and I use the President

of student government association was a man, but the vice president could have been a woman. We, I don't think we were discriminated against the bed. I really doesn't. You're involved in alumni affairs? Yes, I've been president of stanford Alumni association, I believe, I was present four

years, I just went out of office last year, I have been on the alumni board or vice president or some office or some activity in the alumni association, Nearly ever since we left Howard College and my husband is a secretary of the board of trustees and

has been and has been on the trustees for well more than 25 years because he's had his 25 year chair for several years, so I can't remember how long, but it's been a long time. What do you do when you're involved in? Alumni tried to raise

money for the alumni for SAM for Samford University, get people interested in it, helped recruit students get student. Great role that I have played a great role. I just said the role that I played is to just to make people aware of Samford University and what

it does in the community and what's going on at Samford University. I've written little things for the paper for Sanford to get publicity for it or when something nice was going on. We've had groups here in our home. Uh, we help the group get together just

this year, the alumni group, encouraging people to participate. Just spread the word about SAM but I'm just really proud of. It was often said, I acted like I laid the brick myself sometimes and I am, I'm so proud of the new campus. It's so beautiful and

we have seen it when it was not as beautiful, although it was a beautiful old campus with a great huge oak trees and the Sherman oaks where all the sweethearts went to sit down between classes, you know and after class. Right in the heart of right

in the middle of the old campus. It was beautiful but it was nothing like it is now. It's it's really a beautiful campus. And who uh who was it that just came to Sanford? Uh some uh half a minute uh when doc Severinsen was here just

a few weeks ago when he came he said this is what a college campus I would look like. He said he had been everywhere but he thought this was the most beautiful campus he had ever seen. And after I agreed with him thoroughly. Um What did

you think of Major Davis and his administration? Well I was just a student when he was in his administration and he was the sweetest man. Never forgot anybody. But then so was less. Right? Doctor. Right just uh never forgot a name or a face. And I've

never seen anybody in my life. Is doctor. You're gonna get you're gonna ask me about dr right in a minute to I was gonna ask you to compare this to compare the two major Davis. Doctor. Right? Never forgot. I don't believe either man ever forgot a

name or face. Major Davis uh had been a very successful lawyer and came for no pay. I don't know if you know this or not To Howard college it really at his first year he took no salary because Howard college was in dire straits and I

think mr frank Sanford was a big influence on getting very influential in getting major Davis to accept that position. And major Davis uh just had to do everything that he could to get it on a financial sound financial basis, which he did and I just thought

he was wonderful and then I thought less right was wonderful, Less right. Could go in a room of 200 couples or families or husbands and wives with their Children and he could give you every first name what the man did. How many Children he had, how

many went to Howard College Stanford University and how many were going to be there and when when they would matriculate now he really could. He had a wonderful speaking voice and a wonderful delivery. Major Davis was not as great as speaker, but he was equally as

fine and perhaps a greater humanitarian. I don't know that. I could say either one of those men could compare them uh in any way that one was lacked anything that the other one had. I just thought they were both mighty fine. What are some memories you

have of Howard who have already given you so many memories uh of Howard? Let me say cut it off a minute, let me think for a minute. Well I've given you a great many memories of my classes and the good things that we enjoyed and a

lot of friendly people very well received and any time you had business, if you want to go in the President's office, the office was open and you always greeted with a very cordial, friendly welcome. Uh lots of things that were fun. I took a great deal

of interest in the drama department and uh Tony Sparks was a little tiny woman who was really head of the drama department and I took playwriting and had a play, had several plays produced, but I'll never forget that I had to direct one of the place

that was a three act play. I had a one act play incidentally read Armstrong who has been in Hollywood for many years, had come back to school when I was there. He was much older than I than than the students and George bagley who was got

to be ahead of Alabama baptist George came back to school and we all laughed and they said well they were in school with us, but they were older than we. But Red Armstrong and I had a play produced the same night and it was like for

parents night, there were one act plays and then I had written another play later for my playwriting class that was selected for Homecoming or something that we had that night. I believe it was Homecoming. And Jackie Brown was to be the lead in the play and

I was the director and and it snowed, it was like january. I believe it was in february. And Jaffe had been away for the weekend and he was coming home and was snowed in Nashville and could not get back to Birmingham. And this was like on

a monday night and no one knew the lines but me and she was a little larger girl than I was. And I had. They depend because the dresses that she wore and I had to take the lead in my own place. That that was a really

exciting fun thing to happen. But I was the only one that knew the lines and I love living in the dormitory, as I told you, my roommate was also my neighbor at home. We were very good friends and we delight every night our lights had to

be out at 11 o'clock. Would you believe it? And if you had late permission you could stay out on the weekends till one o'clock. But at 11 o'clock every night we had a night watchman and he went around the dormitory. And if any light was on,

you got demerits. And and I cannot tell you how these bad upper class girls were terrible influences on us. And we poured water down on the night watchman at night. Lots of nights and he couldn't tell which windows they came and we work on the second

floor. But just if oh I would tell you terrible things that the girls wouldn't do nowadays. But when you didn't have your mother's car and nobody had a, um, nobody had an automobile, just so few of us had cars. The street, the street car or the

bus ran. It was a three car bus. But anyhow we would thumb rides, but now never by ourselves. But even just two hours, two or three of us are just a bunch of shoes would stand out on the street down on 77th street right by the

college and thumb rides into town. And one time a man, a young boy on a motorcycle with a sidecar came and picked my roommate at me up and we went to downtown Birmingham. So you went to the movie downtown, the Alabama theater was first one theater

and the Ritz and the Empire. You always went to the movie in the afternoons and we would uh, thumb rides and we rode to town and I wouldn't have told my dad. And then we also took flying for my, in my freshman year and until they

found out I was nearsighted and you didn't wear contact lenses in those days and you couldn't wear glasses. So when they passed the first any until I took the eye test and they found that I couldn't see. So I couldn't go on with the class, but

I would slip my, we would you believe we wore job and what sometimes you wore a parachute if you weren't in an open cockpit now because they still had those in the forties and the professor and the professor, the instructor of the flight instructor felt sorry

for me and he said, mr, I will take you up in my plane and when I'm teaching the others and you just can go as an observer. So I went with what with that fellow that was my at the time, not my husband. I took flying.

I went flying and and I learned a fair amount and flying had a great time because the airport was so close to Howard college. So I said wonderful memories of exciting things and taking horseback riding. A boy named Ralph Sibley who was probably about a senior

taught horseback. He was in the National Guard and we took horseback riding at it, roberts field where the National Guard was. That was fun. But we had lots of fun things on the campus. We all sang around the piano in the dormitory. Can you believe it?

Several of us who could play the piano would have everybody just saying we we did innocent good things. We didn't have all this pornography and bad things and there was a respect for, for the girls. And I don't know, it was just just a different life.

It's a whole different, it's just, it's a different uh generation now and I'm not, I'm not ready for a lot of the, the, well, the plain language that you speak of now. The things that is now part of it is good. We were overly sheltered. But

um, the explicit language that's used nowadays on television and in movies and things. I'm still horrified at it. We just didn't. We have really said, I never thought that living through the depression and the war and then, and I was a child. I don't remember a

lot of the depression, but I know it was there and but, and nobody had any money, even when I went to college, you know, there's nobody had much spending money. You had a little allowance from your dad, but a lot of the boys work and some

of the girls were, but I didn't ever think that those would be the best times and now that my life has been very blessed and we've been blessed with Children and My husband, his father gave him $5 to go to college and he's ended up very

well and he worked and we worked, I just worked at home. But uh, to save him to do anything. But I never thought I would think that the best times were way way back when none of us had anything, but we had high principles and I'm

sure you do nowadays. But, but there's so many, so many things tearing at your principles, tearing at your values that you don't have what we had. I really don't think you did forgive me for saying it, but we had a great time. Life was wonderful and

good and wholesome. Well, thank you for the enjoyed. I've enjoyed it too. And you are so sweet to come. And I hope I've told you the things that you'd like to know. Ok. Ok. Thank thank you. Now, when you ask me, I want to say this

about my life at Howard College, my father, he would die if he thought that he that I would have ridden on a motorcycle and a sidecar downtown in Birmingham or that a girl would hitchhike or that I would get in a plane and fly and take

flying lessons. He didn't know any of those things. So, you see, even in those days, we did everything just we hid things from our parents just like you did today and not tell them everything that went on. Okay.