00:00:07.660 - 00:00:35.190

this is Irma Cruz. Well following the beginning of World War Two, I know that we could take a lot more than that but let's watch it and watch the time a little bit that way I wouldn't think that this is just going through, this is gonna

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take 90 minutes. There may be questions yes, there are some that I want to ask that you haven't covered but most of them you have covered. But let me say now to begin with that, I'm sitting on the 10th floor of park place tower in the

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office of J. James G Gan junior. This beautiful office looking out over Birmingham Civic center, the city hall Courthouse. And we're going to talk about something that happened before those buildings were built his days at Howard College. That may be sort of a fancy introduction, but

00:01:11.770 - 00:01:25.910

I can see it. I think about all the changes that are taking place in your life since those days. So how about telling me a little bit about your mother and father and your schooling? I know you know I found out ahead of time that you

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went to England. I already knew that your mother lived over there. Does she still live there? Okay, so how about picking up there? I'll try not to interrupt you. Alright, I grew up in and primarily in the Birmingham area when I was first born. I lived

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in Tarrant During the early 1930s, during the worst part of the depression. We moved to a little town of Hackenberg's Alabama up in the Marion county. Well we lived on a, on a tenant farm for a year or so because my father was laid off from

00:02:02.250 - 00:02:26.140

the railroad company During the Middle 1930s, we moved back to Birmingham to the what's called the balls area between. And uh my dad returned to work for the L. N. Railroad. Even the 1930s were difficult time for working people because it was a matter of being

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working for a time being laid off for a time, working for time. So it was economically, we were right near the bottom rung of the economic ladder. You're speaking my language. I remember those years too. And In 1939, when the war in Europe started, there was

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a of course build up in military forces beginning to be at that time and the and the uh the plants of the industrial plants. So some people with the has been with the Post Office department apparently were called in the military and there were some vacancies

00:03:04.720 - 00:03:23.990

occurred in the Post Office department. My dad had tried for a number of years to the to be to be hired by the Post Office department but had been unsuccessful because railroad company, although it paid a little more money, the uncertainty of work was on the

00:03:23.990 - 00:03:39.810

average. The income was very low. So in 1939 he had the opportunity to go with the Post Office Department, although he was at that time in his middle forties, he became a carrier just a walking carrier in the Birmingham area. That's still not a high paying

00:03:39.810 - 00:04:05.270

job. But it was a relatively uh secure job I attended By the way in, in uh on the Middle 1930s removed from boys up to England which was near the railroad repair shops where my father worked and we moved into some rental housing, moved into three

00:04:05.270 - 00:04:21.020

rental houses. And the circumstances that time was that these very poor people often would stay in the house for a year and move to another house for a year, another house for a year. And we dad, we really were not that type. People wanted their permanency

00:04:21.030 - 00:04:36.260

so they invested in a home, they bought a new, not new, but a home that was available And the price of that home, the one that my mother still is in now went back and looked at the deed not long ago. The price of that house

00:04:36.260 - 00:05:01.270

and lot was $750 In any event. It was a very small four room house and he later added to it. But we were from the extremely low uh echelon economically of of even Birmingham attended grammar school. Um And my only claim to fame was I studied

00:05:01.270 - 00:05:22.550

some, Then I attended Philip asked at the beginning in 1939 uh phillips high school and did not participate in athletics. I had to commute by streetcar to get to phillips high school. So I did not take part in many of the school activities. I was really,

00:05:22.560 - 00:05:42.220

you might say a nobody, I guess I still am. But certainly at that time I was a nobody. And uh, the only success was I had studied enough that I was somewhat proficient in mathematics in english, primarily those two in my senior year at phillips. There

00:05:42.220 - 00:06:06.940

was a program announced by the Navy and the army. If you take certain tests, they would offer the successful candidates opportunities to go into a Navy or army college training program. The Navy called the program V 12 and I'm not sure what the army called the,

00:06:06.940 - 00:06:23.910

I think means voluntary because they were the V five and V seven and V 12 program in the navy 12. I think it was simply a designation of being the college training program. Nothing Sinister or secret about the B- 12 is just a designation. I took

00:06:23.920 - 00:06:46.330

the test for the V 12 program. My senior year at Philips and passed the test was accepted and a story that is associated with that, that I think I'll often I took the test, like a fellow, a friend by the name of Billy Wall to be

00:06:46.340 - 00:07:07.610

L. L. From a zip code and myself took the test together. We went to the testing place together and took the test. We both passed it. The ironic part was he took celebrity of checking the army as being his choice in less than about a half

00:07:07.610 - 00:07:24.370

inch away. There was the navy slot and I checked the navy slot. I checked the navy slot primarily because I guess my father had been in the Navy in World War One. And also, I guess also at that time, maybe the navy to me was somewhat

00:07:24.370 - 00:07:41.700

more glamorous in the pacific, there was not as much favorable publicity I guess, given to the army at that time, the army was building up primarily in europe and it was not in the invasion of europe and it was less uh in the, in the public

00:07:41.700 - 00:08:06.140

media. So I chose the navy, he chose the army. He was sent to a to an army college and when the army was building up the troops in England for the assault on europe, they closed the college program that he was in and sent him to

00:08:06.140 - 00:08:24.190

europe. He became a part of the air assault group. That I was told by glider or he was in a glider and a plane. Told his glider to europe, he was cut loose and they were supposed to land behind the german line and he was killed

00:08:24.200 - 00:08:44.840

in that landing. And I often think of the of the half inch difference between he and myself on that form. I was much more fortunate. I might say that many people were if they were not killed, they were hurt very severely psychologically by World War Two,

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I guess in any war that would be another friend of mine that phillips was in the army. He came back whole, but he came back psychologically ruined. He had been a very sensitive young man, very smart young man. He had slipped up behind the german century

00:09:02.720 - 00:09:23.000

in europe and killed him with a knife and it haunted him as long as I know him after the war. But any event, I was very fortunate, my life in service was a benefit to me. I want to spend some year in the pacific, but the

00:09:23.000 - 00:09:48.010

entire experience benefited me and one of the primary reasons for it was my experience at Howard College. The purpose of the trail program, as I understood it was to quickly give very young applicants an opportunity to get college training in preparation for entering midshipmen school. Midshipman's

00:09:48.010 - 00:10:12.300

school itself was a very short life thing, very concentrated and to be commissioned as, as officers primarily for use in the pacific in the even the landing craft type of small craft, landing craft or the patrol or sub chaser type uh ships Seldom did you find

00:10:12.300 - 00:10:30.390

a V 12 or going to a large carrier or other major battle unit. But there was because of the plans for the invasion of Japan. They foresaw a need of large numbers of these landing craft and small craft for that type of purpose and they were

00:10:30.400 - 00:10:49.730

training the people for leadership and those for example, I was, I went through the entire program. V 12 and midshipmen school and was commissioned an officer at 19 years old. It's hard for me to see now Last four sons who are now well over 19. Any

00:10:49.730 - 00:11:07.440

of them being mature enough at 19 to have done the same thing. I'm sure they would have if they had the training in the background. But in any event that, that to me was the purpose was to give a enough training primarily in mathematics, uh, physics,

00:11:07.450 - 00:11:28.350

uh, engineering, drawing and other practical sciences that would be useful in the, in the military. Howard College was fortunate and also the people who went to Howard was fortunate. Certainly Howard College because of the, of the, of the military emergency had a drop in students. I'm

00:11:28.350 - 00:11:45.020

sure I don't have the figures, but I'm sure they were the number of students that were available to them were limited primarily to the female students who would attend and the ministerial students. And I'll comment a little more about those people because there's, there's some rich

00:11:45.020 - 00:12:06.050

memories of those people And a few toward beginning saying in late 43 and 40 for a few who had returned from the military after having been injured in the military came back, relatively few of those were some of those um, The people who attended the V-

00:12:06.060 - 00:12:29.110

12 unit were primarily initially, primarily from the Alabama area. Later on by the most of these were, as I, most of them were directly out of high school. A few had been to another college for a short time, but both were in the 1819 year range,

00:12:29.120 - 00:12:46.400

there were a sprinkling of old salts, I'll call them who had been in the in the navy and had by some fashion been able to arrange to come back and participate in the program as the B 12 But most of them were simply uh fresh out

00:12:46.400 - 00:13:07.500

of high school or reasonably fresh out of high school with no navy background. The unit itself was not steeped in navy experience. The commanding officer of the V 12 unit itself was a lieutenant hume H U. M. E. He had been, his background was Superintendent of

00:13:07.510 - 00:13:35.780

Schools of Dekalb county Alabama in paint. He was very com easy going, competent leader. There was no shouting. You just, you just debate him because he stood for authority and he was not, he respected the man for his, he was human, but he was very, very

00:13:35.790 - 00:13:57.330

uh calm and collected and and uh in a way formal but not overly formal. His executive officer who really is in any military unit. Executive officer, one that gets the duty to do all the the unpopular things if if there has to be punishment. Executive officer,

00:13:57.330 - 00:14:23.440

the one that typically is the one chosen. He was a also no military background apparently, but he was a very sophisticated new Englander. He was a thin David Niven, I mean much like David Niven in appearance, in his manner. In his precise speech. He had been

00:14:23.450 - 00:14:46.460

either on the faculty or in the administration or both. Just prior to coming here of Brown University in Rhode island. So his background very high academic standards. He came down and was the executive officer lieutenant. Now you listen, there are other members of the V 12

00:14:46.470 - 00:15:02.590

staff itself. A doctor. I believe his name was Mark. I'm not sure who, who was a medical doctor who had the military, the medical requirements. He had a little bit of military experience I think in uh, in the atlantic with the navy for a short while

00:15:02.590 - 00:15:19.700

before coming, there was some chief petty officers. Uh, one or two chief petty officers who may or may not have had some uh, see experience. one may have my belief is the other had not had any, any Navy sea experience. Both had had a little bit

00:15:19.700 - 00:15:41.510

of, of land based experience. But the team work together very well. I thought it was very well run outfit. There's not a great amount of spit and polish. There was enough of it. We had things like inspections every saturday as you would expect, review the uh,

00:15:41.520 - 00:16:12.360

march in review and inspections. You had each morning and each evening the formal uh, ranks and raising the lower the flag with the bugle. You had the room inspections as you would expect. You had um, as I remember the, the title you had was apprentice seaman,

00:16:12.360 - 00:16:29.360

I believe is a V 12. Where did you drill? Where did you have the flag? Well, there was a, there was still a street on the right, right behind the administration building at that time. On the East Lake campus at Howard. There was a street and

00:16:29.580 - 00:16:47.420

it may have been fourth Avenue South. It probably was fourth or fifth. I don't know what it was. It may well have been 5th Avenue South. It's one that that ran between the main campus and directly across the street South of, there was the athletic field.

00:16:47.430 - 00:17:10.230

There was a large athletic field just across the street south of the main administration building. We would assemble on that street every morning and every evening for in ranks for the raising and the lowering of the flag. We would have the drills passing review every saturday

00:17:10.240 - 00:17:29.240

on the athletic field. We would frequently in the morning we'd have reveled in the morning very early and we thought we'd go out and have calisthenics first. Then we would have, we would march through the streets and go through the, the cadence count. I'm sure we

00:17:29.240 - 00:17:45.380

won't many people up in East Lake uh walking up and down the street and marching up and down the streets early in the morning, but that was just part of the, of the training. It was not highly disciplined, but it was when I consider and I

00:17:45.380 - 00:18:05.260

look back on it. It was kind of like me getting into the military one leg at a time, that was the first leg of getting the military. I got both feet in very, very deeply In Midshipmen's school. It was a very trying difficult time. The attitude

00:18:05.260 - 00:18:25.940

is entirely different than the V- 12 unit. And without the having this interim step, intermediate step, it would have been very difficult, if not impossible to have passed. But in any event the the uh spit and polish was fairly limited. We had uh the uh enough,

00:18:25.950 - 00:18:50.430

but not too much, it accomplishes purpose, but it was not oppressive. The administration of Howard College apparently was under as I remember it under President Har well Davis and they called him major Davis and I don't know what the background of that is. Uh but he

00:18:50.430 - 00:19:09.300

was a uh very strong seemingly from my point of view and I remember I was only one of several 100 I was just uh aunt on the uh on a big watermelon. I didn't really, I was not that close to him but impressed me as being

00:19:09.300 - 00:19:33.460

a very strong but but human leader and I His relationship with the V- 12 unit was clearly very, very uh friendly, very cooperative. And the two complimented he and Lieutenant Yoon complement each other very, very well most in the way of the same type. Each had

00:19:33.460 - 00:19:52.790

its responsibilities. But there was no evidence the entire time I was there of any conflict or strained relationship between the B 12 leadership in the, in the college. And that's really true of the students, the B 12 hours. And they obviously get along pretty well with

00:19:52.790 - 00:20:11.620

the girls on campus. But the relationship between the V 12 hours and the ministerial students typically very good. You had some very outstanding people who were ministerial students, two names that come to mind. And most of the people maybe in the baptist church would recognize these

00:20:11.630 - 00:20:29.420

names. Billy Stevenson, who is the pastor or the last time I heard was pastor of the baptist Church indicator. It was a very strong leader among the ministerial students and a louis Marler who was the pastor of the guardrail baptist church for many years. I heard

00:20:29.420 - 00:20:48.430

him speak. He those two come to mind meeting the fellow Billy Adams and others that very, very fine young men, Very strong, capable. In fact, those three played football on the football team with the V-12 hours and had leadership roles in the in the V- 12.

00:20:48.430 - 00:21:10.120

I mean, in the in the football program, in the football program. So from what I saw, there was a Either a neutral or favorable relationship between all students and the V- 12 hours. There was no conflict that I saw. Ah although initially most of the students

00:21:10.410 - 00:21:29.040

came in probably were from, as I remember from the Alabama area. Later on, there was infusion of students from many areas. There was a large group came in from the middle west from Iowa Illinois area. And the only bad part about where they were very fine

00:21:29.050 - 00:21:53.310

people, extremely uh refined young men. I thought the only difficult part was some of them were nordic gods looking type people they took the girls away from, but they were very fine blond, uh fine looking strapping men and they came in from the Middle West. You

00:21:53.310 - 00:22:24.850

had some that came in from new york area, from Virginia and West Virginia. Um And in in the northeast a few of those uh there was some changes constantly going from This unit to either uh B5 unit somewhere that the five being the Navy aviation uh

00:22:24.860 - 00:22:45.890

training group. Some of them had as their goal to go into naval aviation. So they'll be transferred out of this unit and go to a naval aviation group, maybe in Memphis or some other place. Uh Some ask for um more active regular military duty for whatever

00:22:45.890 - 00:23:08.050

reason from time to time. But the primary purpose was preparation for midshipmen school. There were four navy midshipmen schools and operation at that time. One was at Columbia University, Cornell University, Northwestern University and the fourth at Notre Dame University. And I attended to one at Notre

00:23:08.050 - 00:23:29.270

Dame. Um I had a And I consider it an honor of being the 1st 64, 16 months student. Now the sum came into V 12 who were, Had had enough previous college did not have to stay the full 16 months, but you had to have 16

00:23:29.270 - 00:23:52.700

months college before you could go to midshipmen school. I was the first one to be chosen. It had the full 16 months and I was assigned to Notre Dame University and it was very very stringent assignment there of course. But the As I mentioned, the names

00:23:52.700 - 00:24:16.120

of uh Billy Stevenson Luis Martin come to mind. I see Louis Marlowe occasionally now and we occasionally as to why and we occasionally speak about the times in 1940s. Um Many of the people, many students in Alabama were from small towns, Fort Payne. Dave ill places

00:24:16.120 - 00:24:37.490

like that. Then a fair number of us from Birmingham. So we're in our own hometown during this assignment. Um Some were named families, families who were the establishment in the city of Birmingham. Such as mud and you D. D. And such as kids. There are others

00:24:37.490 - 00:24:53.590

who were from the other side of the tracks such as myself or Eugene Kratz or some others. Henry heath, maybe uh bobby, Henry heath who was in that same unit had been a friend in high school. He later became a minister in the Episcopal Church I

00:24:53.590 - 00:25:19.270

believe in uh has has been a minister in uh at more in the first place in Alabama. although he was not in the, he was in the v. 12 unit was not in um The Howard administration. The hired students and the V 12 cadre made all

00:25:19.270 - 00:25:33.650

these people from where they came feel right at home. It was a relatively easy going, probably best way to make young people like that feel good is is good food. There was a dining hall and I believe it's in, I believe it was called Renfro hall,

00:25:33.660 - 00:25:47.700

I believe is the name of the building that was in. It was Renfro hall also was used for a dormitory for part of the B 12. Renfro hall dining room was not large enough for all of them. So you'd have shifts in effect coming in and

00:25:47.700 - 00:26:12.420

eating. We had tablecloth on the table and many of the niceties of home. The kitchen was operated by some why Ladies elderly older, I thought at that time it might have been 30, I don't know, but ladies who really cared about the preparation of food and

00:26:12.420 - 00:26:35.460

how it was presented, it was served and they did such a such a good job uh of feeding us. I guess the best example was lieutenant case. The sophisticate from Rhode island. Uh It didn't take him long to become one of the biggest champions of, of

00:26:35.460 - 00:26:55.770

southern cooking particularly. He'd never eaten Okra for instance, I remember this very vividly they cooked, Okra, I didn't like Okra that much myself, but they cooked it so so well that uh it became a favorite of, of lieutenant case. So the administration of Howard 110% toward

00:26:55.770 - 00:27:28.270

making this group uh feel at home and, and their purpose was well served. The courses that we took with a regular college courses taught by the regular uh, professors at mathematics english chemistry, all those things, all the best courses we were required by V 12 regulations

00:27:28.280 - 00:27:49.120

to take physics and engineering drawing. So the big, extremely large classes were those, I'm sure we were also required to take english and mathematics. But there were enough of those that you didn't concentrate in such large numbers. But the physics professor and I cannot recall his

00:27:49.120 - 00:28:11.020

name. I should. But he was, he had the ability to uh spark interest in the student in some ideas. You know, You can learn the mechanics of physics, but when you, when you, when the professor tells you about the potential. This was in the 1943, 19,

00:28:11.030 - 00:28:32.030

early 44 timeframe. When he told you about the possibilities of rockets and man riding rockets, two distant points. This was well before Nasa was ever set up before anybody else was talking about it. In fact, it's my belief is even before the first uh military jet,

00:28:32.030 - 00:28:55.040

our commercial jet, I believe the first military jet surprised the americans in the european battle in europe by Germany, the german plane. But in any event, this man had the ability to to excite the interest of the students, he had a, as many do, I think

00:28:55.040 - 00:29:07.470

a type of eccentricity wasn't a bad one, but he always wore a slide rule. You could almost imagine that when he went to bed at night, he had a slide rule on his hip and of course a very long slide rule at that time, slide rules

00:29:07.480 - 00:29:27.390

were uh in the foot and a half range in length and he wore it on his hip. And there was a popular song, not a particularly uh high quality song but a popular song at that time. On the jukebox. It's called pistol Packin mama. And the

00:29:27.400 - 00:29:45.810

more talented students in R. V. 12 unit started changing the wording in it to make it match slide rule packing whatever his name was. But it was, he was one of the students, one of the professors, another professor that comes to mind is uh professor of

00:29:45.820 - 00:30:11.620

history professor called Dean Dale. He had a crippling disease. I'm not sure probably polio but I'm not sure. And he was, he was immobile but he probably exemplified as well as anyone that I've ever known. The overcoming of a handicap that type. He, I never saw

00:30:11.620 - 00:30:29.580

him down. He was always happy when he taught a course he taught it in an interesting pictorial way you remember verbal pictures you sell them. Remember verbal sentences, He was teaching about the the building of the Panama canal. And this is just one that comes to

00:30:29.580 - 00:30:53.320

mind teaching about the Panama canal and the role that medicine played and the success ultimately deemed the canal by eliminating the disease, malaria. Any one of the questions on the final exam was what was the cruising range of a malaria carrying mosquito? And it was as

00:30:53.320 - 00:31:10.470

I remember 350 yards because he had told he had, he used that in his illustration to help us remember this type of thing. But he, I was looking through the yearbook recently and I noticed some snapshots of professors and I noticed that he had his typical

00:31:10.480 - 00:31:31.650

wide smile on his face even in that informal snapshot. Uh he he made friends with and was uh just as revered by the, the more tough, say the football players and that type people as he was, the more artistic side. He was a friend of all

00:31:31.660 - 00:31:48.890

and many people think of certainly I think of Dean Dale as being one of the, one of the stalwarts of early Howard college when I knew him. Um I attended Birmingham Southern a short time before going to Howard. I guess this gets into the way I

00:31:48.890 - 00:32:10.100

feel about Howard as a, as a university I call it Howard of course now Sanford, but at that time it was Howard, um I tend to Birmingham Southern Birmingham Southern had a very high academic standard, I guess I'll have to say it had a, a more

00:32:10.100 - 00:32:29.040

stringent academic standard than howard seemed to have, but howard had some things that Birmingham Southern did not show me. Of course it's a little unfair for me to make this comparison because I commuted by streetcar to Birmingham Southern for the short time I was at Birmingham

00:32:29.040 - 00:32:51.440

Southern and I lived on campus at Howard. So it made it may be unfair to do this, but I was a very unsophisticated 17 year old when I started Grammy in southern and I was at the summer after you finished phillips, I finished phillips in january

00:32:51.440 - 00:33:17.590

1943. So between january 1943 in july 1st 1943 when I entered the V 12 program, I had the time in the spring of 43 to attend Birmingham Southern and I I was concerned about what I considered the world and the world in this of Birmingham Southern

00:33:17.590 - 00:33:37.660

young women, not from the sexual aspect but from something that struck me and probably doesn't strike many people this way. I thought it was extremely unfeminine for women to smoke. And I saw there that the women seem to be drawn to smoking as a requirement to

00:33:37.670 - 00:33:55.710

be sophisticated. And it disturbed me a lot because I was not socially advanced and they probably would have paid attention to me anyway if I had been interested. But most of the of the women who were, who were extremely attractive also smoked. And it disturbed me

00:33:55.720 - 00:34:14.840

much. I did not find that at Howard College, they seem to be more, I guess old fashioned, more old fashioned than the ones in Birmingham Southern. Um Although even at Howard College, I probably spent more time because of my extremely young age with maybe the high

00:34:14.840 - 00:34:36.310

school girls in the community that did with the Birmingham Southern, I mean the howard coeds, although I did know and date the howard coeds also. Um but Howard had a had something that I needed extremely, maybe I would never have gotten at Birmingham Southern unless I

00:34:36.320 - 00:34:56.370

lived on campus, I'm not sure I would have there. I had a lack of confidence maybe that I needed to build up and a couple of things that that I, that occurred to me there made it made it possible to build some confidence not only in

00:34:56.370 - 00:35:15.700

the matter of Of athletics, such as we had a run by the way from every Friday, every B12 I had to run from the campus and howard up to a fire tower on top of Red Mountain some two or three miles away had run up there

00:35:15.700 - 00:35:31.040

and run back and we were timed and there were people from the staff spotted at the tower in various places to be sure that you covered the route you were supposed to, You were logged in and logged out as you made the run. I had not

00:35:31.040 - 00:35:53.540

been an athlete in high school, but because of the program and my determination I became more athletic uh successful while I was there and finally in this run it got so that I would Have a goal of always finished within the top three. Now, the entire

00:35:53.540 - 00:36:07.850

unit didn't run at one time, but it probably maybe 100 run at one time and maybe 100 and another time. I always try to be within the top three. And usually I, of course after 42 years of memory, I finished every time in the top three.

00:36:07.860 - 00:36:23.450

But the matter I may not have, but it was a goal that I attempted to meet to reach. And I did was Dr Irons there. Then, you know, he was had such a career as a runner. I did not know Dr Irons the name of course,

00:36:23.460 - 00:36:46.360

over time the name is very familiar, but I did not know him personally at that time. Um it was, it was a, it was just one of the physical build up tight that was necessary to keep the unit in physical condition and I saw tremendous progress

00:36:46.360 - 00:37:04.560

in my physical capabilities over that six month period I became of course, intramural athletics, uh, was a part either in a mural between sometimes within, say, the other part of the university, but a lot of them were just within the b 12 units themselves, one company

00:37:04.560 - 00:37:23.120

competing against another, but uh, I was not a was not a good athlete, but as compared to what I was when I went in, I was amazing athlete because I had not had not accomplished anything prior to that. I became uh, above average. I thought for

00:37:23.120 - 00:37:40.980

the average guy and I did not actually play varsity football. Although I attempted to, I did make the scout team and I'd always run during the week prior to the game. I would run the other team's runs against the varsity, but I never made the varsity.

00:37:42.380 - 00:38:11.510

Uh All right, we were interrupted by the telephone, but Mr Gan is continuing this discussion of his experiences at Howard. Speaking of varsity football and basketball, they want of course, received more publicity than the mural People in today's world. I see on the street occasionally, that

00:38:11.520 - 00:38:38.210

were very important part of the varsity football program in 1943. Uh, Bill Harris, who is now the the responsible for the city high school athletic program. I believe it's tied to something like athletic director for city schools. Um, Billy jobs who was a very fine uh,

00:38:38.220 - 00:38:55.660

player from his home really was uh, but I believe now from Montgomery bob norman Birmingham lawyer, uh, was a, was a player on that team. There were a couple of players, one named chris mOK M O C H M O C. K. At least. M. O.

00:38:55.660 - 00:39:12.770

Ch fellow mike Moran, who were the two equivalent of quarterbacks. I'm not sure what the title of that position was, but they threw the football and so forth. A little small. But Ignatius lineman by the name of Gunner fellow Cecil Duffy, who was a very fine

00:39:12.770 - 00:39:32.510

runner. I believe he's from David Alabama his name now he was he was a very fine runner, charlie spear who who was a lawyer in Birmingham for a number of years and then became, he was the father of Brookwood hospital and later sold Brookwood hospital. He's

00:39:32.510 - 00:39:51.590

now in the in the middle hospital business. Uh but he was a he was a lineman, an end on the team. And later on charlie played at Vanderbilt on the varsity. Vanderbilt and as I mentioned uh maybe louis Marler and Bette Stephenson who were to verifying

00:39:51.590 - 00:40:08.500

players on the team. This marlin made a touchdown in a game played at legion field. I'm not sure who the opponent was but he had broken an arm and he had an arm and a cast and the coach put him in for one play and he

00:40:08.500 - 00:40:25.080

simply went out and decoy. The next play they sent him along and the quarterback threw the ball to him over everybody's head and he caught it with one hand made touchdown. He made, he entered the game for two plays and made a touchdown. And as far

00:40:25.080 - 00:40:40.890

as basketball is concerned, there's only one name that stands out in my mind and that's Clarence slaughter. He was called black bass slaughter. He was a star. He played every minute of every game I guess that he was elevated to play. He was he recently retired

00:40:40.900 - 00:41:01.430

from the FBI After a long career with the FBI as an agent. He was a resident agent of dope in Alabama when he retired. Ah There were two dorms that the v. 12 hours lived in. One was called Smith Hall and that was on 3rd Avenue

00:41:01.430 - 00:41:23.650

South, some two blocks east of campus, across from the Baptist Church. There, Baptist Church Smith Hall had been a women's dormitory before the 12 hours uh moved in. Then after the V 12 has moved out in the sometime in the late forties, it's my belief Easton

00:41:23.660 - 00:41:48.840

Hospital then took over uh smith hall and the adjacent property and it became the Easton Hospital. And of course East End has recently relocated out in the Huffman Roebuck area center for the area. But during the, In the 40s, Smith Hall was the home of about

00:41:48.840 - 00:42:11.610

half of the v. 12 hours. In fact, many times I've gone back to eastern hospital and thought of The times that I had been in those very same rooms as a V 12. Um The school enjoyed a fine relationship with Eastlake community. They were small businesses

00:42:11.610 - 00:42:27.540

and Jason. I remember there's a bakery there on the corner and Jason smith hall. Uh there were cleaners and other businesses nearby. Very fine relationship with with the owners of those businesses and and the people who lived in the homes nearby, the homes up and down

00:42:27.540 - 00:42:45.220

the street. About the only reason I guess that they would have for being concerned was the, as I mentioned earlier, the early morning uh, marching up down the street with a, with a cadence count, but there was never any complaint that I knew of. The campus

00:42:45.220 - 00:43:06.660

itself was a major addition to the East Lake Community community. We're proud of the, of the campus. It was unfortunate that because of lack of space, the campus had to move. The count was also small and compact, included, everything in very close proximity. The south, the

00:43:06.670 - 00:43:26.260

north edge of the campus was along 3rd Avenue South, the streetcar line from Birmingham, I believe the streetcar number 38 South East Lake. You would catch the Southeast Lake car downtown Birmingham and ride to the campus. It was immediately adjacent to the campus. In two blocks

00:43:26.260 - 00:43:45.830

east of there stopped directly across the street from From Smith Hall. So the convenient transportation I wrote many many times while in B12, you stood on the street and looked to the campus, looked up the walkway toward the administration building that was a dominant uh, landmark

00:43:45.830 - 00:44:04.880

and that was a very large, large oak tree right in the middle of the campus, that, uh, everything else kind of uh, centered on administration building was at the extreme south Edge of the, of the open area and it really affronted on probably to see the

00:44:04.890 - 00:44:23.630

4th or 5th Avenue South on the backside. As you look from Third Avenue look towards the campus, see the oak tree in the middle of the campus. The left was renfro hall where the dining area was and had been a dormitory and also on the left

00:44:23.630 - 00:44:41.760

side, there were certain classroom, remember economics and other courses taught on the left side and right at the extreme southeast corner of that block was the, was the gymnasium, the basketball court. And there was only one handball court on campus. And that's where I learned to

00:44:41.760 - 00:45:00.040

play handball handball court in the gym nation. And the unusual part about that particular court was, it did not have a ceiling. Most handball courts have a ceiling, but this did not have a ceiling. It was simply a corner of the gymnasium walled off As you

00:45:00.040 - 00:45:17.590

look towards the capital from 3rd Ave at the end of the walkway at the south end of the walkway with the administration building and to the right side of that. As you would look up the campus where several classroom buildings and the, uh, as I remember

00:45:17.590 - 00:46:00.980

the, the sorority Road Girls sororities were located there, uh, directly behind the administration building. Across the street was the, uh, athletic field and, and so forth. Let me turn this tape an incident that happened the day I reported two Howard College, Which was

00:46:00.990 - 00:46:27.130

July 1, 1943. There were probably some 200 or so. Other people reported that same day. Later on, there was, as I mentioned, influxes from other schools and transfers from this, but the original group July 1, 43. They were all civilians. No, I knew very few of,

00:46:27.300 - 00:46:53.720

of the people there. As I remember the first day we were not assigned a room, but we simply were told to go find a cot and live there. The first day we would be assigned rooms and uniforms. Uh, at the first opportunity, um, I found a

00:46:53.730 - 00:47:15.570

cot on the first floor at the rear east wing of smith hall and claimed it for my own. And you claimed it by spreading the sheet. There was a sheet folded at the, at the foot of the cot. So you claimed it by spreading one of

00:47:15.570 - 00:47:37.880

the two sheets folded on the cot to uh, to claim that as your own, which I did. And during the day's activity, of course I was out from the room occasionally go eat and various responsibilities uh, to uh, to get started. And I returned from one

00:47:37.880 - 00:47:58.880

of the excursions out of the room and found that my cot and she was missing. And it was very awkward because I didn't know where I found another one. I had noticed when I spread the sheet that there was a very minor flaw in the sheet

00:47:58.880 - 00:48:15.100

itself that I thought I would recognize. So I started to search, I searched that floor and with no luck in the second floor smith hall. East wing with no luck and moved to the to the west wing. First floor. No luck. Finally, on the second floor

00:48:15.100 - 00:48:32.510

of the opposite wing, I found my cot and sheep because I recognized it by the floor, there was a man standing there, young fella standing there that was about a foot taller than me uh, claimed it as his and I told him that it was my

00:48:32.670 - 00:48:52.050

mind and that he had taken it because I recognized the flaw in the sheet. He, I'm not sure he ever admitted he took it, but he let me then take the card and return to my room. Ironic part of that was several months later I came

00:48:52.050 - 00:49:15.640

to know this young man very well. In fact, we became roommates and became close friends. Later he was a television announcer on a station in Atlanta. I believe WSB television station in Atlanta. I was the first V- 12 er, to receive a uniform on campus and

00:49:15.640 - 00:49:40.000

they were issued in the gymnasium. You went through as you would at any military, uh, installation and you really should your, the entire uniform underwear, navy blues and navy whites, the hat, all the things that go with the apprentice seaman. And uh, I remember that I

00:49:40.000 - 00:50:00.050

was the first individual to walk up third avenue South with my little navy hat on and all my arms loaded with uniform. But the time at howard was beneficial. It nurtured me at the time. I need nurturing. It probably gave me an opportunity because of that

00:50:00.060 - 00:50:18.870

successfully going to the shipment school gave me a belief that I could do things myself. I have not been uh, gloriously successful in my time as far as economically since that time. But I felt confident And I think part of it came from my experience at

00:50:18.880 - 00:50:42.010

Howard College. I might say that I have other ties to Samford University in that uh, three of my sons, uh, graduated from Cumberland Law School and three of my daughter in laws are graduates of SaN. What a coincidence. So there there are many ties to sample

00:50:42.010 - 00:51:03.760

other than my tenants there. Well, now your fourth son is David the young, he, he married a beth tiller who graduated from Sanford about three years ago, two years ago maybe. And they came back to the chapel to get married. Yes, yes. They were married in

00:51:03.770 - 00:51:24.750

a chapel in july of this year. I was there. Well, it was Sanford is, has many, many pluses. As far as I'm concerned. It's, I've said many times that if they ever struck oil on my back lot and I had too much money, I would give

00:51:24.750 - 00:51:45.100

it to a university or school. I think my first choice would be sanded. That'll never happen by the way. But you mean you've already explored and there's no oil there. But uh, although I attend the University of Alabama, I feel a a closer um, affection for

00:51:45.100 - 00:52:03.030

Howard and, and Sanford than I do to university. Well, now I'd like to ask you some more things about your life since then. Where did you meet mary? Did that have anything to do with your college days? Well it had something in my college days. I

00:52:03.030 - 00:52:24.100

was in school at university and there was a on campus there was a building the center of activities called, it was that time called Superstore. It was the supply store where not only you about school supplies, but you had uh soda fountain and that type of

00:52:24.100 - 00:52:40.580

thing. The post offices in there, They relocated now over to the building over off the main street. At that time it was on University Avenue. I was going one afternoon to a I was in law school like I was in my senior year law school. Did

00:52:40.580 - 00:52:57.720

you go straight from Howard down to the university. Now remember I had been, I left Howard in 1940 for and went to midshipmen school another name. And I was in the Navy. In fact I was in Brunei Bay Barney. Oh when the war was over I

00:52:57.720 - 00:53:17.890

was on a little sub chaser in Borneo. So when I came back from the military I started university and in the fall of 1946. So I was out from 44 to 46 before going going on to law school. I went to university. So I had two

00:53:17.900 - 00:53:36.910

undergraduate engineering 46. I remember now that you earned your degree in two fields. I mean you earned an engineering degree. Yes I got an engineering degree in 49 from the university. And then and then immediately law school 51 but I was a senior. And I was

00:53:36.920 - 00:53:55.000

going that afternoon, as I remember in the very late spring, very warm weather and I was going over to the, to the swimming who are pond, It was not a concrete dude, it was just a lake on the campus there at university. And I was going

00:53:55.000 - 00:54:13.880

by the supply store for some reason I had the urge to go buy chewing gum and not without any. Typically I didn't chew a lot of dumb, but I went in and bought chewing gum. When I walked in. I saw very slim, attractive with the prettiest

00:54:13.880 - 00:54:35.140

eyes I've ever seen, looked like a startled deer standing there, very sculptured face, prettiest girl I've seen and I looked at her and looked at her and I recognized that I had seen her a week or so before in a department store in Birmingham. I've never

00:54:35.140 - 00:54:49.160

spoken to her but I'd seen her in Love Men's department store. I was standing in the line here and I'd seen her here so I'm not gonna let her get away this time. So I looked at her and I went over to her and she was

00:54:49.160 - 00:55:09.470

simply visiting Tuscaloosa that day just to be visiting that day. Why are you spending the night, went over to her and I said my name's, I asked her what her name was. She said mary smith. I said yeah, I'm tom jones. She said no really mary

00:55:09.470 - 00:55:25.570

smith. She was with some friends and we talked a little while and she gave me her her name turned out that she was, she lived within two miles of me in Birmingham, but I didn't know her. That's where I met her. And then I called her,

00:55:25.580 - 00:55:42.680

I wrote her and then I came to town to uh Birmingham and and started dating with. That's the way I met Harry. And it was very fortunate. I think it was, you hear these things sometimes it may be corny sounds corny, but I think it was

00:55:42.680 - 00:55:55.190

really an intended. I think it was really intended to be. It was not something I had any control over. I think there was a mighty power that sent me to her. And it's proven to be correct since that time has been uh would not have been

00:55:55.200 - 00:56:13.490

uh I don't think likely that any other choice would have been as um happy for me. I'm not sure it was the best thing for her, but it was certainly the most fortunate thing that ever happened to me that particular day. And all the other things

00:56:13.490 - 00:56:25.740

is good has happened to me since that time. Have largely centered on that the four sons and home and so forth have been largely because of that. I think it was intended to be. I don't think I would have known, I don't think I would have

00:56:25.740 - 00:56:47.380

remembered seeing her in Birmingham in a in a department store in a line. We're both standing in line near each other. And I think it was it was just intended when you were at Howard college thinking about mary and your life, your closeness to your church

00:56:47.380 - 00:57:07.500

and that part of your life, I want to ask you where you you were methodist then you've been methodist all the way Historically have been met. Yeah. Then at Howard, was there much emphasis on churchgoing? Was attendance at chapel compulsory at the time you were there?

00:57:07.510 - 00:57:29.890

No the B-12 hours were not required to attend chapel. We were encouraged to attend. Fact I intended si since my home was in Birmingham frequently on sunday we were off and I could go to back to England but I've I've been many times to Roukema also

00:57:30.080 - 00:57:56.030

many times. Eastlake methods which was located only a block from the campus there. Uh so both uh both East Lake Methodist Andrew Hema attended while I was there. Although there was no compulsory requirement for it. This is a little bit of of unasked for editorializing I

00:57:56.030 - 00:58:16.610

guess. I feel maybe that it may not serve as total purpose to require attendance at chapel. Uh If there's a way to get people to attend voluntarily, I don't I would not chance the likelihood of people being turned totally turned off forever by being forced to

00:58:16.620 - 00:58:34.760

do something. I would encourage myself, I would encourage uh attendance because you want to. And I say one of the most in my, my history of, you know, I was 27 years old before I married. So uh 2026 years old before I married. So I had

00:58:34.760 - 00:58:56.640

an opportunity many times to experience this young people often, particularly young men, not always uh drawn to attending church unless there's a young lady who wants to go. So the young ladies have a responsibility and a, and a golden opportunity, I think to encourage attendance. And

00:58:56.640 - 00:59:20.470

of course it works out the young ladies benefit if they're ultimately the future wife, if they can encourage it without being too obvious about it. Right now. Thinking about back to university and you jump onto your career. Did the things you learned at Howard form a

00:59:20.470 - 00:59:41.420

good background for your work when you started with your job. And how about mentioning that a little bit, I cannot cite specifically that a particular course itself um, was used in anywhere in the career specifically. I can cite a more important thing. I think. I think

00:59:41.420 - 01:00:07.490

it was the nurturing, the gaining of confidence, the belief in myself that resulted from Howard had I gone directly from civilian life to make shipment school. My roommate in midshipmen school Was 180° from me in most every way possible. He was a Harvard graduate from massachusetts,

01:00:09.520 - 01:00:33.410

his values, his standards, his interests were as far field Of mine as two could be. The competition of midshipmen school is extremely difficult. They do everything possible. They did everything possible to discourage the individual. There was a student and I will not call his name. There

01:00:33.410 - 01:00:52.430

was a student who left The V- 12 program at Howard College and attended Columbia University. He jumped out the window, killed himself, which was good. It was that bad. It was that bad. Well, I wasn't that bad for me, but he, now that was, this was

01:00:52.430 - 01:01:14.360

the story. I was not there when it occurred, but that was the understanding that I had Now school there was every effort made to frustrate to strain you to the, to the most difficult. Strange position you can take, see if you can take it. Everything from

01:01:14.370 - 01:01:32.870

minor things such as you had to run everywhere you went, you had to salute and go through a little routine. Every time you saw an officer, you uh, you had to uh, uh, the class of the day was extremely well, well, well before daylight very early

01:01:33.100 - 01:01:55.060

to assemble on the court wrangle at uh, Notre dame University coldest spot in the world is the spot I had to assemble on every morning and is the winner And the day was extremely full throughout the day and every type of activity and it just poured

01:01:55.060 - 01:02:10.000

it on you so fast. It was, if you blink an eye, you missed something. Tests were extremely difficult and added to that was you had to stand watch for instance, two or three times a week. You would have a night watch to stand, but you still

01:02:10.000 - 01:02:26.840

have to go through the daytime activities. I have walked around Notre dame football stadium in the snow with a nightstick guarding against the intruders. Whoever they might be countless times from 12 to 2 in the morning or from 2 to 4 in the morning or whatever

01:02:26.840 - 01:02:44.570

time. And I guess one of the most difficult parts of that was not only did you have a very full day and you're absolutely exhausted physically, but they would come in to wake you for the assignment, for your for your watch duty and they would come

01:02:44.570 - 01:02:58.000

in with a flashlight. They wouldn't turn the light on because you were made and then to say sign here and you just sign the initials, they walk out. It was up to you to get up, get your clothes on, all your heavy clothes on and get

01:02:58.010 - 01:03:12.140

to the side and if you missed it, you kicked out and they were looking for ways to kick people out of, you know, the two extreme the stream was so difficult, so extreme. So Howard enabled me, as I say, to get one leg in at a

01:03:12.150 - 01:03:31.740

time. I kind of got a touch of military, I got a confidence in myself that enable me then to successfully complete school. It would, I think it would have been very difficult had not been for Howard and it nurtured me. It did not benefit. I cannot

01:03:31.740 - 01:03:50.500

cite a particular course, history or math or physics or any course of that type say well I use the result in later life. But the nurturing and the And the building of confidence was more important and that came from our or was Howard was a part

01:03:50.500 - 01:04:17.430

of it. Why did you decide with you had both those degrees? Why did you decide to go with the telephone company because of depression depression in 1930s most of us who who went through that put much greater value on security and today's people do security uh

01:04:17.440 - 01:04:40.380

was very important. I live next door in Tarrant because it's just a little boy to a tough old man who all there in the depression was never laid off. He always worked when Sam Howell was. Now that was terry terry terry. His son Obie Jr still

01:04:40.380 - 01:04:53.970

works for the company. But uh security was the reason it was, it was important to me to have a job and I thought telephone company would be like, that's the only, the only place that I interviewed, I didn't try to get a job anywhere else with

01:04:53.970 - 01:05:12.830

a law firm anywhere else. When I went with the company, the personnel people with Southern belle in Atlanta suggested that if I go with engineering department when I first came to the company but they need to learn something about the company and they foresaw what did

01:05:12.830 - 01:05:24.240

happen later that there would be a legal department in each state. That time there was no legal department said, well if you go with the company now, you go in engineering and when the legal department form, you'll have a leg up being the legal department. Of

01:05:24.240 - 01:05:39.880

course, when the legal department formed, it was formed by the Atlanta legal department, they had no idea that there was even jim gannon Alabama and they never thought about it. But at the same time I was offered a job with Southern belle, A T and T.

01:05:39.880 - 01:05:55.130

Which was in the same building at that time over in Atlanta, offered me a job with the legal department. I could have gone with a T. And T. Legal at the same day I went to work with Southern belle uh here in Alabama. But I would

01:05:55.130 - 01:06:11.250

have been assignment home. My home base would have been Cincinnati. If I had been going with a T. And T. Home based, Southern Southern belle was Birmingham because later Southern belle split up became south central here. But at that time it was Southern. That's when you

01:06:11.250 - 01:06:33.780

came into my life. Well, that's right. We were, we were friends. Uh I guess as as early as the 1956 57 58 time frame, you were in the offices I believe on the same floor in the, in the phoenix building, 309 building. Well, those were, those,

01:06:33.790 - 01:06:47.630

uh, there's no tape to put that on the telephone company then? The telephone company now are two different animals. But uh, that's, that's something else I might say something I meant to mention wanna go. Although I mentioned Bill Harris and Bill De and some others in

01:06:47.640 - 01:07:07.520

football. One of the, one of the important people that Sanford Howard Howard college that time was the football coach that brought him in from local area name was Janet Snyder who had been a coach at Bessemer and later on became a coach investment. In fact, the

01:07:07.520 - 01:07:28.670

stadium investors named after. Now, Snit Snyder was a recognized football coach in the, how do you spell his name? S N I D E R. Snyder. I don't know what his real name was, but it was, was that what everybody called? And he was, he was

01:07:28.680 - 01:07:52.110

brought in primarily for the purpose of, uh, of the, uh, um, here's this picture I believe. Yeah, right here. This is on page 108 of the 1940 for entry. New top left hand corner of that page shows coach Snyder and chief, this was, this was Pete

01:07:52.110 - 01:08:15.150

Knudson who was a Chief petty Officer and this was a Chief Petty Officer, Mcdonald, those two navy people and Snyder was, uh, civilian, uh, coach when you made your decision to retire after your career with the telephone company? You already had your law degree? Did you

01:08:15.150 - 01:08:38.110

had, you kept up with things, Do you get behind in the legal profession when you do something else, get behind you can keep your, keep your license active by uh, the requirements and requirements, for instance, continuing legal education. Now you have to go through a, It's

01:08:38.110 - 01:09:02.620

required that you take 12 hours per year. Of course, you pay your annual license the so you stay as an active licensed attorney. Of course, there was a vast gap between what I knew When I graduated from law school and 30 years later when I set

01:09:02.620 - 01:09:31.500

up practice, there's been a major change in the, and the rules of court during that time, when I, when I graduated from law school, much of the court procedure was pleadings technicalities, very fortunate for the judicial system, the justice system of this state in this country

01:09:31.510 - 01:09:55.690

that has been replaced right now, the system, party was replaced before I started back into practice. Was there practical, easily understood, uh, logical rules of court that still require knowledge of those rules. But it's not a game of technicalities like it used to be, used to

01:09:55.700 - 01:10:18.240

be a game of technicalities largely. Now, it's an attempt to achieve justice and the rules are written in a fashion to try to assure that, but of course I was not knowledgeable in those I attempted. I have attended. Uh, many courses put on by the, by

01:10:18.240 - 01:10:41.680

the continuing legal education uh group at the University of Alabama and by other groups. Also Sanford. I've attended some at Sanford, they had a federal uh series of, of continuing legal education courses. Sessions of sandwich I attended. I tried to uh tried just to read up

01:10:41.690 - 01:10:58.440

from various sources. I've got various documents. Even then that left me uh real cripple as far as the ability to compete in the broad field of legal work. I there's too many good lawyers recently out of school who know their business for me, that's the reason

01:10:58.440 - 01:11:13.070

when I set up practice, I had to be a specialist and the specialist in the well that was ready made for you then your experience in the telephone company because with independent relations, because of the well that the independent relations part certainly was important in the

01:11:13.070 - 01:11:40.360

standpoint, not only of of knowing something about their background and the role they played, but also it was a good source of clients. Secondly, the background in the tariff work was another Very fortunate 15 years of experience for the telephone company that relatively few anybody out

01:11:40.360 - 01:12:00.980

in the legal field in Alabama today has that type combined background. So my my I had to have a specialty especially was even enhanced by the fact of divestiture of the bell system. So all the things kind of went together to make it, if there was

01:12:00.980 - 01:12:15.180

a good time to leave a sure thing, a job with the utility that had paid me promptly each month as I threw out my beer and try to go out and try to make a living on your own when you have to pay rent for space

01:12:15.180 - 01:12:35.350

and library books and keeping the books up to date and all the things, all expenses that go with your own office without the specialty. I could not have made it, I could not have successfully uh practice law because of the specialty because of the time, the

01:12:35.360 - 01:13:01.580

time that particular time divestiture and the things that resulted from it was the right time and there's no question but what I was guided almost pushed again by by God to do this and it is encompassed in a wall hanging over there over the interest there.

01:13:01.580 - 01:13:26.380

As you come in. There's a, there's a needle work uh from a psalm that were generally recognized as him. The first standard of him. He's still my soul. And uh the wording in that that came about by the way is when I was trying to make

01:13:26.380 - 01:13:47.720

a decision as to whether I would retire the or not. The pastor of the Highlands Methodist Church South is friday. We were members there. Well, I was for a number of years but last several in fact this year I am the Chairman Finance Committee of the

01:13:47.730 - 01:14:07.060

Church and I take a proactive role. Now anyway, at that time in 19 80 81 time Frank the decision of whether I would retire, you have to have to request retirement well in advance of retirement and it was one of the most difficult decisions I've ever

01:14:07.060 - 01:14:25.540

had to make. I don't know where I could make a living outside or not. I knew my pension was not sufficient to live as I wanted to live. There was, there were a series of sermons, some two or three sermons, one particularly as if dealing and

01:14:25.540 - 01:14:41.840

he didn't know what my plight by the way. It just, it's almost as if he knew my flight and was preaching a sermon directly to me. And since he didn't know about it, there's somebody else that did nobody. So I know where it came from. This

01:14:41.840 - 01:15:04.100

was the that phrase, the first stanza of the hymn, be still my soul was printed in the bulletin as part of the bulletin. And the sermon itself was as if he was preaching only to me and it gave me in person, I knew what I was

01:15:04.110 - 01:15:26.030

being told. Of course. No, that's why that hangs where it was. That was by the way the way the history of that. When I brought that sunday I monday I brought that bulletin in, I gave it to uh Dorothy Willis, my secretary. I said this is

01:15:26.030 - 01:15:50.720

very important and has made a very important imprint on me yesterday's sermon. This particular thing has really important shows the bullet, she kept the bullet when I retired. She gave me this needle point hanging from that. She had taken the words out of the bullet and

01:15:50.720 - 01:16:14.770

then pointing and it's the play at the center point of honor. There came out. Mhm This would be here for that. Thank you for telling me about that. I think it's important as the conclusion of this interview because we can see Jim Gann from the time

01:16:14.770 - 01:16:37.830

you were born to what you're making of yourself now. Well, I really hadn't made that much of myself in economic terms. We live constantly. They have a difficult time because keeping grandchild and that type of thing. But we have a happy life. That's the most important

01:16:37.830 - 01:16:51.400

anybody else has got the money. That's what they're looking for anyway, that's exactly right. You're exactly right. I want to thank you very much for this interview for the time we've spent. I'm resuming this interview with Mr Gan because we want to talk a minute about

01:16:51.400 - 01:17:17.820

something that both of us consider important. That was the atmosphere, the feeling of closeness on the old campus Being on the campus. As a part of the V 12 unit. I felt extreme closeness to the school to the campus. Of course my first security at first

01:17:19.830 - 01:17:37.240

Allegiance was with the V- 12 unit itself. That was a compact unit. Much like a say a fraternity where you live on campus in a fraternity house is much larger than that, but it's the same idea. There was a a closeness to the unit itself. The

01:17:37.240 - 01:17:56.420

school itself was the 2nd unit of closeness. Many of the students, many civilian students I did not know, had no occasion to be around them. And, and because of the, everything centered around the B-12 activity, I did not, I often did not have the opportunity to

01:17:56.430 - 01:18:16.420

be acquainted with the uh civilian students unless it was at some social functions. And there were some social functions. There was a not only was there a uh, informal band put together by the v 12 hours primarily, uh, don't be a marching band. It was more

01:18:16.420 - 01:18:32.040

of a popular song band. There was a piano player and I cannot recall his name, but he played the tune, Nola at least 300 times during, during my stay there and it was welcome every time it was played on the old piano in the main lobby

01:18:32.040 - 01:18:44.900

of Renfroe hall while we were waiting for for a meal and that we would drift in. Somebody asked him and drag him over the piano. He played a group of songs and Nolan was the one that sticks in my mind is the one that was the

01:18:44.910 - 01:19:05.040

favorite butthole list of songs he played very well without any sheet music. Then there was the artistic group that uh, put on plays and skits as an example. I remember the H. M. S. Pinafore was put on largely by the B. 12 hours and some campus

01:19:05.050 - 01:19:21.860

people where the humorous type skits that you think of against the as you would always have in that circumstance against the officers and so forth as a, as a kidding and joking thing. But the feeling of closeness, not only the closeness, the smallness of the campus,

01:19:22.290 - 01:19:40.270

but the feeling of closeness to me really has been unequal any other place as far as any college because it was a self contained uh unit. That was uh, I guess because I lived there and ate there and everything, I had a closeness to it as

01:19:40.280 - 01:19:57.260

well. So, uh, the two things together made it unique and whether it would have been as satisfying had I not been a part of the unit, I can't say because I wasn't on it on that basis, but it was unique and, and was a, uh, a

01:19:57.270 - 01:20:15.190

very strong influence on my life and on really, the community each late lost a tremendous amount when it had to move. How did your boys feel after they were on the campus at stanford? Of course they weren't living there. So that would make a difference to,

01:20:15.200 - 01:20:29.980

they never lived on campus, which makes a tremendous difference. They were not a part of the undergraduate program, which is another difference. Just in law school, where did they go to undergraduate? All of them attended either all the way through or part of the University of

01:20:29.990 - 01:20:46.880

Tuscaloosa. Some of them attended For a little while. One of the 10 little while in Montevallo and went on to university and then graduated maybe are there was, it was two or three all have attended two or three of the school. University, University of Birmingham, University

01:20:46.880 - 01:21:09.730

of Alabama, Birmingham amount of balance. So really their view of Sanford was as graduate students, graduate students and it's entirely uh different um, viewpoint from it. They just, they saw it as a place kind of like go to work. In fact, most of them attended school,

01:21:09.730 - 01:21:23.570

there worked in their off hours, so I didn't have much time to hang around the campus. They either work for a law firm or for a restaurant or something. So they weren't sitting in the snack bar talking like you do when you live on the campus

01:21:23.650 - 01:21:42.790

and that's primarily associated in my mind. Was undergraduate life primarily, not necessarily all the way because my, my senior year tuscaloosa, I did, I lived, didn't live in the house uh as I had most of the time, but it was, it was still a social life

01:21:42.800 - 01:22:08.430

in a, to a degree, but I think the view that I get is that it is a Sanford is a, still retains many of the values of the old fashioned way, some of which I looked on with this favorite by the young people dancing. I'm not

01:22:08.430 - 01:22:19.160

sure where you're still not looked on with favor now not or are things at that time. I think if you have to go to the extreme one way or the other, it's better to go to the extreme this way than the other way. I think it's

01:22:19.160 - 01:22:41.780

better to be uh more, I use more puritanical than than the other extreme. I don't know whether Sanford now has an opportunity to uh loosen up a little bit from the standpoint of uh those things. I I get the feeling that many of the students who

01:22:41.790 - 01:22:58.880

come back who now attend, stanford are probably much like myself, who were sheltered, who are not socially advanced. And I think that's probably a type of school that they need to attend. It's the type that develop them in a slow fashion in a way that benefits

01:22:58.880 - 01:23:19.610

them. So I don't discourage what they're doing. Well, I appreciate you taking time to talk about that, it's valuable. And again, I'm reminded that today, Tuesday october the 22nd, 1985 42 years has been that long since the period we're talking about. Hard to realize, but marvelous.

01:23:19.620 - 01:23:20.540

Thank you again