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This is an interview with Mr Ali M Doherty for the Sanford University oil history program by Rebecca l thomas at his home at 8 22 Parker street in Bessemer Alabama on Wednesday november 6th 1985. Mr Doherty, could you tell me a little bit about your family,

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about your parents and growing up in Tallapoosa County And um that type of information, I was born and reared in a remote section of Tallapoosa County. When I say remote, it was an extreme north western part of the county, 15 miles from Alexander City and about

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the same distance from Ashland, Ashland in Clay County. And I lived within a mile of the line of Clay County in television and what was known as the Valley Grove community. I attended the first seven grades At the Bottott Grove Elementary School. It was a two

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teachers school and there's no transportation from our community to any other school to a high school. So when I finished the seventh grade, in fact I stayed in the seventh grade two years because there was no other school. And at that time, as I said, there

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was no transportation, but my father made provision for me too bored with my aunt, his sister in Ashland and I attended school in Ashland one year, my eighth grade and it was that year mrs thomas that grade, A teacher, science teacher who gave me the feeling

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that active possibly go to college someday. And I don't know what it was that influenced her to say this, but she said, I want you to go to college and prepare yourself to teach school. Well that year I had the unfortunate experience in uh football to

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injure my knee, which uh really has been a lifelong problem and eventually Was the cause of my having to retire from my profession in 1972. Well we'll get back now to school. My next two years Were spent at Hack Nibble School, which was seven miles from

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my home. My father would carry me over in our buggy and on monday morning and on friday afternoon come for me. So I spent the weekends at home, but the other five days at school, where did you, who did you live with? The first year I

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lived with the family with the name of scott and that was part of the year. They were on the brink you might say of poverty themselves and just wasn't able to take someone in as an extra person at the table. So I made a change in

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the middle of the year to McKelvey family and spent the rest of the school term with McKelvey family. Then in the following year, during the summer months I was at home working on the farm In 19 and 20 three and four, it was my second year

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in high school away from home, I went back to school and then the following year I voted with the principal of the school mr 80 megs. Now this was mine, 10th grade And incidentally I might say at this point that at that time and I believe

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it was the last next to the last year that Alabama had only 11 grades in high school. So the 10th grade would be my junior year. And in the month of May of my school term I took the state teacher's examination at Tallapoosa County site, the

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date with Alabama and was fortunate enough to pass and receive a teaching certificate. That was the end of my junior in high school. Then my last year in high school had to be spent elsewhere because high school ended after junior year. I spent my senior year

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at Tallapoosa County High School in Dayton, graduating in May, 1926, heading the possession of a teaching certificate. I was fortunate to get school and my home community that gotta go where I attended my school And was principal of two of the two teachers school for six

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weeks in 1926. Then I was fortunate enough to yes position, teaching position at new sites school, Which was also about seven miles from home. I drove a bus that term, that was 26 and 27 And talk to 3rd and 4th grade and coach basketball. Uh In

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the late spring I started a night school which was located in alexander city, Home County. There was a branch of the Atlanta Business College. I attended night school until my school term in it. And then I moved to Alex city and attended this business college both

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day and evenings and received a diploma in August 1927. From that on a business college, I took that business course for a special purpose knowing that I wanted to go to college and I thought that the training in a business course would enable me to get

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work to pay my expenses in college, which it certainly did is that I may relate later. The principal of this school where I talked to six weeks, wanted to attend Jacksonville State Teachers College that summer and that is the reason I was able to get the

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position in this elementary school. I took his place and incidentally he, the year that I told you side was his first year at Howard Garen Galloway who lived in the new side community. Garen Galloway then is the person responsible for my choosing Howard, His brother Burbage.

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He and I and Gerren left For Howard in early September 19 and 27. Garen had lived the previous year and what was known as the young men's home in wood long, Which was about three miles from the Howard campus and Galen recommended that we set up

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housekeeping there. The place was occupied only by uh boys and men. Our meals were provided there, But the house was known as the young men's home and about 2/3 or possibly more of the 20th, so occupants were gainfully employed. They were not students. The rest of

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us were students. So for the first three months, Well up until christmas Aaliyah Blair. But you can imagine with these men who were employed and not having lessons prepare for the next day and so on. They had more interest in entertainment and things of that nature.

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And you can imagine the problem that presented to those of us who needed to study. Well. I tried to study as best I could in that environment, but by the time uh christmas time rolled around I realized that I needed to make a change and uh

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home environment. So I moved to a private home near the campus following the christmas holidays and was with this family approximate two years. They lived about two blocks from campus. Do you remember their names? Yes, it was mr and mrs holly. I do not remember the

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initial holly. I know he was employed by the Underwood typewriter company. Were you the only student living in that house or did they normally take in Borders? I was the only one at the time they took in another border after I moved in. How did you

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find them in the paper? They, I was making inquiry there on the campus of out of place and this place was recommended and I visited them and they agreed to let me room and board there. And were you working also or just going to school? That

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that's an interesting story within itself. I told you that I took a business course hoping that I'd get some work expenses when I raised it. Howard The day I registered I went to the treasurer's office. The treasurer was Professor T. R. Equals vice president and treasurer

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of the college at that time and explained that I would like to have work on the campus if work were available. He asked me a few questions and asked me to submit some of my handwriting. He wanted to see my handwriting, which I did. I don't

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recall what I wrote, but I guess I gave my name and address and so forth. Now this was the very first week of school. I was told that at that time they weren't sure whether they would need anyone in the office there, but if so they

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found out they did and could use me, they would notify me. So for two weeks I was in suspense living at this young man's home in Woodlawn. In the meantime Burbage Galloway, uh who was a roommate of mine there was working for the american express company

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downtown and I thought well maybe I can get, can get work with that company. So one afternoon I went with him on his route and after seeing him climb stairways with heavy trunks on his back, I realized that that wasn't the work I was looking for.

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I was still uh nursing that knee that had given me trouble every year since I first entered. So I knew that I couldn't do that type of work. Well one afternoon, the second week of school, I happened to be at home at this young man's home

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telephone rain. And they said there's only dirty live here. And they said that the dead and and called on the telephone said this is Miss Lottie johnson, uh treasurer's office at Howard. You made application I believe to work? Yes, I did what she said, Would you

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come in in the morning after your convenience? I want to talk with you. Well, you can imagine how thrilled I was because I did feel like there was a possibility that I might get a job. Well, I hastened in the next day and was told that

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they would like to use me as assistant bookkeeper there in the treasurer's office And asked me, of course, my schedule and when I could work, which was after about 1:00 and I could work until office closed. And that my pay would be $0.50 per hour and

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I would keep my own time. Mrs thomas began work there in the office the next day and held that position until I graduated. And I kept my own time for the first year at $0.50 an hour. And beginning this second year, I was told that I

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would be paid $50 a month. I would not have to keep a record of the hours. I'd just be paid $50 a month. And they knew about when I would be in forward. That as I said, was they result our being trained in the bookkeeping and

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typing. I thought I was also trained in shorthand. I took it into business course, thinking, you know that when I go to classes in college I just take the lecture in shorthand and I'll have a step ahead of the others. But uh it didn't work out

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that way. I forgot my shorthand and I couldn't use it in those, especially science places. Well um Mr Doherty, was your family supportive of you? You had, how long did you have a large family back home or were they approving of the college education? Mrs thomas.

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There were seven Children, family, five girls and two boys. I was the oldest boy. I was the third child. Born into the family. My father told me that he wanted me to get a high school education, but he doubted that we'd be financially able to go

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to college. He told me that while I was in high school, well, the fact that I was able to teach that summer and the following year and earned a little money, I was uh somewhat independent enough that I thought I could see my way clear today

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that I left home to go to Howard. My father gave me $125. So I entered college with $125 barred from him. Plus a little that I had saved from teaching. So that was you might say the financial backing I had at the time. Did that seem

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like a fortune to you? Or did you think you were gonna have to be cutting corners? Well, I I had Faith that I'd find work to do to earn while I was in college. It just didn't occur to me that that I can recall that there

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was any doubt what that $125 get me started and then from that point on I would be self sufficient. That just was my faith. Did you, did you think you would be able to get like tuition support or I know the ministerial students had a lower

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tuition rate, did you? Well, no, I didn't anticipate any health there, which I did not because I wasn't a ministerial student in the first place, but I was able to pay the tuition to enter and the board and room for the time being. And then that

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work that I was getting was helping to do. You remember about how much your first room and board cost you? Well, that's a good question. I'm glad you asked that I kept a daily record of my expenses. The first two years, a daily record. If I

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bought a package of chewing gum, I recorded five since the gun. Well, I didn't smoke. And so the one in that Spence there. My First years total expense was $586 plus a few cents. I don't remember the $586 this second year, It was $616 inflation. Well,

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I just, a little more expense. You know, as you go up in the grades in college, you just have a little more expensive. Were you shocked coming from a rural environment into a city, the city life of Birmingham? Uh was it more expensive? Well now you

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use the word shocked. Let me say that my experience That full term and six weeks teaching and driving the school bus matured me a lot. It didn't take the country out of it by any means Boarding away from home. four years also matured me, helped me

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to a degree that I was more, I guess you'd say independent and I had been weaned away from home. But I I had in dwelled in me as I guess most rural boys do or did that real life, which is quite different from city life. I

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had lived in table that year. My senior in high school, which is a small town, but it was not of course to be compared with life in Birmingham. So it was not what you'd call a shock. I was away. I had been away from home enough

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that being away in college was just another year in school for me. Mhm. So I I wouldn't think that that affected me too much. I do think that it would. Well at this point to say that when I entered Howard and had the opportunity to sit

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in class with others who had come from the city and from schools that had better equipment and more opportunities for the students. I realized that I had missed out on a lot of things that they had received. They would mention fiction books or other books that

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they had in college that were required for them to read support which I knew very little if anything about. I felt real inadequate in that respect. For example in my first year one of my courses was french. Well I hadn't had any foreign language in high

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school, there hadn't been any talk and it wasn't part of the course we studied in the schools. I realized there that those who had come from say the city schools in Birmingham and other cities throughout the state that had a much more enriched course, they were

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better equipped in english and as I say in french some of them had some french in high school. I'm mentioning french for this reason. Oh I found it very difficult to catch on. I guess you'd say in the french class compounding that difficulty of mine was

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the fact that in this home where I spent the first three months I didn't do as much studying at night as I needed to do. So consequently at the end of the first semester I received a d In french and without appearing egotistical about my grades

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that I hadn't experienced that before? And I went to mrs Bohannon the teacher and at that time I think was conditioned. There's this possibility that I've failed of course that's pure and simple. She said that she didn't know whether I could make it up or not

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finish. I said well you you'll give me a chance won't you? Certainly she did provide a chance and I oh I was motivated to get busy and that I see I changed residences where I could concentrate at night and I ended up with a C. Plus

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or B. One in the course of the year. So that gives you some idea of the difference between say a rural school with its limited facilities to those that had provided better facilities. So it was the background. I think that played a big part. Even my

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speech was evident. Uh Miss Lottie johnson, I referred to her as the one who uh called me and she was my supervisor or boss you might say in the office where she was. She recognized some of the things that I was saying words you know that

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I mispronounced miss used and she was kind and considered and tactful to help me with. That called my attention to things which I had not been aware of. Which is just another way of saying uh the rural background limited my I guess you'd say scholastic achievement,

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were you uh did you feel there were more people from your background or more city? Do you think most of the people lived in Birmingham? Or was it a, I would say, yeah, I would say that 50% or more, maybe much more than that lived in

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Birmingham or surrounding towns. We had lots of students riding, Streetcars are coming to uh the campus in Cocteau's from out of town. And then we had number of my friends where from towns outside of Jefferson County, one of my closest friends home was in boaz, for

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example, another one in Talis. E no, them Andalusia, just to mention a few. Um did you feel isolated on the East Lake campus? Or did you feel involved in the community life of Birmingham? Well, the fact that I was working in the Treasurer's office, I had

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opportunities there, that few students, howard had of getting acquainted with the other students. They came in there to pay their fees and we're in and out for other reasons. Uh The President dr john Dawson's office was connected to the office where I work, so to reach

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his office, he came through our office, Dean Burns office was right across the hall and I had opportunity that few, as I say, students had to get acquainted with the other students, There's very few students, only in the college at that time, that I didn't know

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personally. And I as I think back, I can realize that that was a great advantage over the four years that you were there, that's right over the four years really won four years. Uh I need to make this clear, I was there Only 33 months, oh

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I was away three months During the summer of 1928 selling books in South Carolina outside of those three months. Now, away from the campus at the end of my freshman year. Uh Since you worked in the office Mr Doherty with Mr Eagles or Dean Eagles and

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dr Dawson. Uh Could you give me some impressions that you got about those men? Well of course, Professor Eagles said was my boss man really if you want to refer to it as such, the treasurer and I was assistant bookkeeper in the treasurer's office. And his

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office was just a door away. Ah And also it was my math teacher the second year, so I had the opportunity to be with him, you might say a year before I took a course under him. That's the Eagles was a very conservative type man. Wasn't

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a big talker, but pleasant to be around and certainly pleasant with whom to work. He taught uh most of his time spent as a teacher naturally as treasurer of college, he had a lot of that phase of work to look after. Dr Dawson had I guess

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the year before I enrolled, lost his wife by death and by the time I enrolled and after I had become better acquainted with him I learned to appreciate him all the more as president. And as I say his office was adjacent to ours and to enter

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his office he usually came directly through hours. I remember one thing that made an impression on me that it was rather humorous statement came through one day and a rather hurried manner. He said he had to get some things done and get ready and go to

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Florence Alabama. Well Miss Lottie I knew why he was going to Florence. He was dating a lady up there and so she questioned him a little bit about his Florence Alabama visit. And he answered her questions and made this statement which it was unique. He said

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you know men to be chased by women which indicated that this lady was as much or more interested in him than he was than her. But yet he was interesting here too. He made that statement which was made a lasting impression on me. I haven't found

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anything women chasing me though. He said men wanted to be chased by ladies. That was his philosophy. Uh Those now when you you started to Howard and 27 there were big rivalry between Birmingham Southern and and Howard college. Um in 1928 there was an incident where

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Howard student o. H. Westbrook shot and killed a southern boy uh named Montrose Freeman. Do you have any recollection of that incident? Very vividly so. Mrs thomas the night before this happened. Mr Westbrook who was dating girl sister to the wife and mother in the home

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where I was living. That mrs holly, her sister was dating this boy and he was he was dating her that night that mrs uh hold his home and I overheard this fact we were all together, he was telling about the threats that had been made on

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him by this boy. And it was and the incident that involved was to shave their head. That was the way they had of getting at each other and he had threatened that he was gonna shave this boy's head, both of them were from the city of

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gathering call. Well the next day the southern boy came to where he was working with, he was a pharmacy student and was working in this drug store where this occurred. And this is the way I remember the Southern boy came in and told him he came

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for and he knew what that meant that he was gonna take him and they were going to take him somewhere and shave his head. Well the Westbrook boy backed off as he started in two behind the counter shall we say. And the Westbrook just pulled a

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revolver from the drawer where he headed and as the other boy entered he shot him, killed him. Now that was just a few days before the Birmingham Southern Howard football game, which always was a lot of rivalry of course between the two schools. But I do

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remember that and I was that closely connected to the case. Did you see uh did Westbrook seem mentally unstable at any time that you knew him? Well? I knew him only that one occasion. But no, I don't, I didn't, I never had thought of him being

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mentally unstable and I never heard it referred to as uh after the incident. Did you ever see him again? Do you know what happened to him? I do not that just kind of faded out of my memory about him. I know I never did see him

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anymore. And so I'm the only one that one time. How did Miss Halsey feel about the incident? Her sister? Uh well, frankly, I can't remember. I know it was just a shock to everybody. Yes, there was little of it in the crimson and uh was it

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quieted quieted down on campus? Was there was there a a move to keep it quiet or not that I recall the fact that the thing that I do have somewhat of an impression that I recall is that the fact that they were both from the same

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town and knew each other personally. You know growing up. I guess you might say that seemed to, oh, soften the shock. Well, not to shock, but it softened the feeling of one against the other in fact they were both from the same town. People couldn't imagine

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it happening. And it did call off the football game. It did that, but I can't recall many after effects. You don't know the end of the story in other words. No, I don't uh, I've forgotten really about it. I don't know even, I don't think the

00:35:11.930 - 00:35:34.990

boy was charged with murder. I don't think there was any prosecution, anything I don't believe. So. Did did did all the football games have a different feel after that or did people still have that strong, intense Oh, feelings. I don't know that I can intelligently answer

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that question. I'm just trying to think whether or not it. And did they competition between the two schools? I'm not sure about that, but I know it did that particular year that season. There was in connection with the football competition. May I say this the fresh

00:36:02.850 - 00:36:24.860

one each year had to stand guard for two weeks before the game. This, this is just a thing that the freshmen understood to be expected of them. And I remember one of the nights that I was on guard was a real rainy, cold night. And you

00:36:24.860 - 00:36:45.770

had certain stations that you had to be in at certain times to see that no Southern student came on the campus or dismayed any disturbance of any kind, but it called for being out in the weather. I remember that quite well, there was keen rivalry. The

00:36:46.700 - 00:37:07.590

Howard Boys one of the years, I don't know, it must have been my first year stole the southern panther. That was a big achievement. You know for Howard to steal their panther. It was not a real panther, but uh stuffed animal and kept it that was

00:37:07.590 - 00:37:26.500

on display at Howard. And of course what we were guarding is to keep the southern students from retrieving that panther. We didn't want them to get in and get the panther back. That's what we were guarding. The policemen. They're guarding it to. No, not that I

00:37:26.500 - 00:37:43.960

recall. You mean pay policemen? No, I think they depended on the freshman to be the sufficient. Did you ever have any run ins? No, not personally. There wasn't any occasion for me to be too excited. Do you know what you would have done? I don't know

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what to do, but there were several hours onto you at the same time. We were in talking distance, communicating distance with each other. There were several freshmen on guard each night. We could turn, we had certain hours that we would be on duty. Were you a

00:38:01.910 - 00:38:22.390

big football fan yourself? Did you go to all the games? And uh well, I don't think you would, I don't think I would class myself as a big fan, naturally being a student there? I was pulling for howard as everyone would be of course, but working

00:38:22.390 - 00:38:52.160

in the office limited my activities off campus and I of course would attend the home games. There weren't too many like it is nowadays, but you wouldn't consider me a big football fan. I got my football freshman in Ashland when I got injured that I took

00:38:52.160 - 00:39:18.820

some of mine through that. Um I guess Mr Doherty, you mentioned selling books three months in south Carolina. Could you relate some of those expenses experiences? Mrs thomas? If my wife were here, she would say, please don't ask him to talk about that. I could talk

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all day about that summer. I've often made the statement, I wouldn't take $1 million dollars for the experience and it would probably require that get me to do it over. That was some experience. I could talk, as I say all day about that at the end,

00:39:40.200 - 00:40:07.580

near the end of my freshman year, Roy thomas who was a year ahead of us uh in college had worked the previous summer with this educational publishing company out of Nashville Tennessee and he enlisted several of us boys to sell books that summer. He was going

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to be our manager. And so when school was out, we, those of us who had agreed To sell spent, I believe it was four days in Chattanooga taking a training course in salesmanship. I remember quite vividly that experience when we left Chattanooga. Well before we left,

00:40:30.760 - 00:41:01.580

we were told where we would be sent to work that summer and millennial strength from Palace E and I were paired off to work in Greenville county south Carolina. We left Chattanooga hitchhiking to Greenville south Carolina. The city of Greenville. And the first day we went

00:41:01.580 - 00:41:24.000

through Athens Georgia I remember. And just out of Athens, as I say, we were coming arrives The this car stopped to pick us up. There were two men and two boys and they decided they would have some fun out of us and instead of having fun

00:41:24.000 - 00:41:41.130

out of us, they just scared us there driving recklessly. And the first opportunity we had of a little town. I don't remember the name of the town but it's outside of Athens. We had them to stop and let us get out and it was nearing night

00:41:42.000 - 00:42:03.150

at that time. And we got a place to spend the night there in in this little town. And the next morning. Laney, oh my Betty said now you can ride the bus the rest of the way and I'll hitchhike or maybe maybe I told him he

00:42:03.150 - 00:42:18.600

could hitchhike, I was gonna catch a bus and that's what I did, I caught the bus in the Greenwood south Carolina. He and I hadn't understood that we'd meet at the post office. Well when I arrived on bus in Greenwood south Carolina I went to post

00:42:18.600 - 00:42:35.480

office there he sat on the steps from the post office. He had arrived earlier than I did and he was thumbing rides. I was riding the bus. We spent that first night in the Y. M. C. A. They told us they didn't have room but they

00:42:35.480 - 00:42:52.900

had some mattresses that got to sleep on a mattress on the floor in one of the storage room. And that's what we did the next day. We made acquaintance with the policeman there in Greenville. Uh uh and almost remember his name. But I know he was

00:42:52.900 - 00:43:09.240

a friend of mine all summer but he uh advised us where we might find a place, an apartment that we could use on weekends. He linear was to work the southern part of the county and I was to work the northern part. And we will meet

00:43:09.250 - 00:43:33.130

back on saturday about noon for the weekend and then on monday morning we go our separate way. That's what we did during the summer walking from house to house spending the night wherever we were at a year sundown if they would let us spend the night

00:43:33.130 - 00:43:56.940

with them. And most people did. And I think you'll be surprised when I tell you that of the entire summer. I paid cash only two for 2 nights. They would provide you a good supper and breakfast and of course play sleep. And there are other places.

00:43:57.690 - 00:44:17.890

Uh they they would either buy a book and I would deduct 75 cents from the cost. While they'd say you don't know us anything. We're just glad to have you two families that summer encouraged the and I did spend the entire week with them working out

00:44:17.900 - 00:44:35.810

from their home and coming back to that place? They want me to do that. What kind of books were you selling? I was selling what was known as a practical home library. There were five books the title of the books were culture and good manners, business

00:44:35.810 - 00:45:08.470

principles, health and Home remedies, modern cooking and bible and patriotic stories And also the Bible. Each book sold for $2.85. All the complete set of five was 985 and the Bible sold for $7. Well, my my best sale was the bible stories and great men and

00:45:10.840 - 00:45:27.410

people say you you're gonna be a preacher, aren't you? I don't know why that was my best sale. But anyway, that that was my best sale. And I guess they got the idea that I was maybe a ministerial student or something and Lineal strength That sale

00:45:27.410 - 00:45:49.840

was the one on health and Home remedies and they thought he was going to be a doctor. Well that summer I had more colorful experiences. Well, it would take a day to tell you all about a few of them to, Well, one night for example, walk

00:45:49.850 - 00:46:25.400

until As I was saying, I walked to 10:30 before I found a place to spend the night and uh everyone had gone to bed when I knocked on the door and the man came to the door

00:46:25.400 - 00:46:41.020

and I told him who I was and I was selling books and working in, coming into there and needed a place to spend the night that he held. Could I spend the night with them? And he said, yes, you can come on in. And he asked

00:46:41.020 - 00:46:55.280

me to have to suffer. Which I had not. I told him I had not, but that was all right. And he said, well we have corn bread and water and he's left from supper if you can eat that. I said, well, I certainly can. I don't

00:46:55.290 - 00:47:18.950

when I enjoyed a meal more than peas and corn bread and water. Then in the meantime preparations are being made for me to sleep. And I learned the next day the preparations were, He had three daughters, little girls all sleeping together and he made arrangements, or

00:47:19.390 - 00:47:41.910

the family did for me to use their bed. That's where I slept. And the next morning of course uh they provided breakfast and wouldn't take anything for the nice logic. That's one experience had. Uh Another one I think you'll get a chuckle out of. And was

00:47:41.920 - 00:48:11.700

this we're spending the night with this man and wife? They had prepared chicken for supper. I remember we had chicken that she had killed, I guess uh arrived. And the following we retired that night after supper, the husband told me said, now leave For my work

00:48:11.710 - 00:48:35.850

at 4:00 AM. And it says you will leave with me and the wife had an opportunity afterwards to whisper to me that he was jealous. That was the reason I would have to leave. So I said yes I'll be ready to leave. And uh I've told

00:48:35.850 - 00:48:58.550

that a few times and uh I think I have colored some people's impression of what kind of a boy I was. The fear of leaving me there alone with his wife. And they would ask me, well how how far did he take you? And I can't

00:48:58.550 - 00:49:20.390

remember how far, but my answer would be far enough that it's too far to walk back. Well that was another incident had that I thought was rather unique. one place I stayed had a beautiful girl and I had the opportunity of course to chat with her.

00:49:21.250 - 00:49:52.060

And she wrote me after I returned. Sam Howard! It's the first time I'd ever gotten a special delivery letter. But our friendship of course didn't developed into anything serious experiences like that uh Made made it well one other that I might tell you I was warned

00:49:52.600 - 00:50:11.730

to begin with not to go to the dark corner. And I inquired what they meant by the dark corner. And I said that's the northern part of this county help in the mountains. And people have been known to go in there that never came out. And

00:50:12.210 - 00:50:27.100

well they told me enough about that. I didn't think I'd have any interest in the northern Part of it or the dark corner. one Thursday afternoon came a shower of rain and I was near a country store and I dipped in, get out of the rain

00:50:27.950 - 00:50:48.580

and there's a number of men in there and I could tell that they were a little observant vicious probability who it was by carrying a briefcase. And I asked the question, how far was it to the dark corner? And the fire was, well you're in the

00:50:50.460 - 00:51:09.410

southern part of the dark corner, now you're already in a dark corner. But as luck would have it. One of the gentlemen who was in there had had a brother to sell books in Alabama. Well, immediately when he found out my business, he had an interest

00:51:09.410 - 00:51:26.870

in me and invited me to spend the night with him. And one of the other which I did. And one of the other men in the store said well now will you spend tomorrow night with us? Which I did When I arrived the second night at

00:51:26.880 - 00:51:53.880

this place, I found out that they had invited some of the local musicians in banjo and they call it fiddle and they entertained me with a music program. The neighbors. What were they afraid of? Do you think? Well I can answer that question. That's right. Moonshine.

00:51:53.890 - 00:52:16.480

Yeah, there was a lot of it done there I learned and uh they didn't want revenue officers, any official law enforcement people in the community even. They were suspicious of anyone that they didn't know who made an appearance in the community. And since that time it

00:52:16.480 - 00:52:42.680

is thomas, I have had opportunity to talk with people who were born and reared in that dark corner area of Greenville. South Carolina kimball County. Men who had were born in Red there, but left and attended college. One I can recall was with the southern baptist

00:52:42.690 - 00:52:59.270

sunday school board in Nashville. He told a study course in our church a few years ago. And uh, when I learned that he was from south Carolina, Greenville County, I questioned him incidentally. He was one who was reared, born and reared in the dark corner. And

00:52:59.270 - 00:53:15.050

he told me a number of people from that area had gone out and and made success. And what was his marriage, do you remember? Well, I'm sorry, I don't, but I know he did teach study course. I'm sorry that I don't remember his name. Were you

00:53:15.050 - 00:53:50.430

able to make make enough money selling books to support yourself averaged. I averaged $100 a month when I was paid off. That was a good salary plus your bookkeeping. Thank you. Go to college. Yeah, I might say this when I was in the seventh. How to

00:53:50.430 - 00:54:20.370

grow school. The principal, I had flu one week And he employed me as a 7th grade. Mhm. Take his place. Why he chose me. I don't know, But it just seems kind of step from the beginning, it was destined from either teach or be involved in

00:54:20.380 - 00:54:57.750

school. And so when I took this business course in the spring summer 27, within using that society preparing to teach Now there's a story that might be well to mention here. Professor Eagles In 19 and 20 1920. Ask me would I consider going with Pirate College?

00:55:01.670 - 00:55:37.070

Shut you up. My eager I guess you'd say I'd enjoy. He said, well, I would like for you to choose courses and business administration. The rest of europe howard. Yeah, I was taken just but with a view. So I did. I started taking I took advanced

00:55:37.070 - 00:56:16.180

course and bookkeeping. Sure, Maybe one or 2 other business field this low And then the 19 and 29. Mhm. They were not going to be position. He knew that I needed to know it so that I could then switch back to the courses I would in

00:56:16.180 - 00:57:07.990

connection with that 1929. Financial, Let me tell you this small town, East Lake. I can't remember exactly 50. Yeah. Yes. Not someone. And there was someone who was going to meat with the people who are interested in and knowing more about situation. And I got excused

00:57:08.000 - 00:57:38.230

from the office to grow up in this meeting. He was a lawyer and I think his name was Wilkerson condemning him. We're standing in a flat making a speech and he was pleading with his listeners not to withdraw their money. Remember what I'm saying? That if

00:57:38.230 - 00:58:07.130

you with value the bank will have, but if you will not leave it in the bank possibility that it can withstand. As I said, I had I think study notice that well, I'm gonna take a chance. Imagine me thinking 5 $30 would keep the bank going.

00:58:07.130 - 00:58:33.420

But I I was one of the ones who in the back it didn't close. It had closed. I would have lost. That's just an experience besides not being able to have, you know, you for the office job. And how could you tell any other problems with

00:58:33.430 - 00:59:04.180

the, uh, the finances of the campus? Yes. Being in the treasurer's office. Knowing the financial situation of the students as they would come in and tell couldn't pay their most of them hate it in piecemeal. Anyway, they get behind. Yeah, that that was very the financial

00:59:04.590 - 00:59:57.670

situation. Campus live friday's financial needs and me too, professors gradually I should in office there where they were paid if I recall, I was not mm I'm sure that their salary was. Remember that month? That was as the term goes, that was skimping on every

00:59:57.670 - 01:00:43.960

hand that I remember. I don't recall anything that morning or signal that there was incidentally that also administrators heading up a program to build jim didn't have a gym. We need you mm directed no one else. One indication that there was still money available or they

01:00:43.960 - 01:01:22.930

wouldn't have started a program started doing the well he and the discussion lasted for the pledge is being made? Yes to a degree? I never those states I gave first two years would indicate that I was pretty concerned. I didn't want to spend, I didn't spend

01:01:22.930 - 01:02:26.970

much, that's all I couldn't have. I was, you were um many times bobby the first two years naturally I had clashed with fraternity. Just the impression I get a little still hot and I did, but mostly financial backing at home. I knew I could and I

01:02:26.970 - 01:03:07.880

didn't join until my scene. That was the reason this place I didn't have too much sense before. It's saying that it was Crowley. That's all usually stayed in the fraternity home and it was much more expensive. And of course the girls, the girls had survived connection

01:03:13.010 - 01:03:50.920

did have yes, I had this connection with the girls a year. I was living in the dormitory means I moved from. Yeah, I was told by the office I was advised that uh while I was living there in run for hall that I could get my

01:03:50.930 - 01:04:13.100

meals provided if I would serve as a cashier in the lunch room, which I did. And also that if I would look after the electrical needs at the girls dormitory name is smith hall. It was known that I would, that would take care of my room.

01:04:13.800 - 01:04:33.890

So I got my meals and my room at 10 pro for those two jobs. And that added you see to my income from the office work which enabled me to carry my own note. So that's how did you decide to join a fraternity? You said you

01:04:33.890 - 01:04:57.790

were not really uh sympathetic to them and yet you joined the fraternity. one of my closest friends dear cox from boaz was a member of that fraternity and I guess you would say that he was influential. Greatness. So I'm sure he was in my joining. I

01:04:57.790 - 01:05:23.390

was encouraged to buy several of the members and I realized that there was some attachment to being a member of fraternity that uh kinda added to your statue on the campus. I knew that and yes thought that it would be a benefit to me socially. Uh

01:05:23.390 - 01:05:48.920

huh Probably culturally. And so I joined. I remember I just, did you date sorority girls? Is that what you meant? No, it wasn't that I guess it's just the name, being a fraternity number. What I had, what I started to tell you was the initiation that

01:05:48.920 - 01:06:09.350

was some experience after all the rituals and what have you that took place there in the dorm building. We had a private home had been a private home that was our headquarters on Underwood Avenue. I remember anyway after all that was over which was early in

01:06:09.350 - 01:06:33.290

the morning hours I guess between one and two o'clock they told us they were going to take us out side out of town and be our business and our responsibility to get back and so they did, they put us out and puts out, they did do

01:06:33.290 - 01:06:53.180

that, this, that put us out in tires and I wasn't alone. But when they put two of us out, we had no idea where we were when you had been driving quite some distance from the campus and of course it was pitch dark and we could

01:06:53.180 - 01:07:10.240

see lights in the distance. We knew must be Birmingham. We learned later that it was over in the parents city area, but they told us it was our responsibility to get back to campus and they want us back at a certain time. Well, we didn't know

01:07:10.660 - 01:07:35.590

what direction to start. We saw one house that had a light on and we went up and knocked on the door. Someone got out of bed and came to the door and who were and problem was and unfortunately they were synthetic with us and told us

01:07:36.070 - 01:07:52.050

where to go to catch a streetcar, which wasn't very far fortunately for us to catch a streetcar back to Birmingham. And then of course when we got back downtown, we knew where we were, you know, and could catch streetcar back to campus. So that is an

01:07:52.050 - 01:08:16.400

experience that potential life initiating in it. I remember quite well, were there other harder initiation rites or know that the other part, I won't go into detail too much about the part of the house except to say that they had to strip you were in the

01:08:16.400 - 01:08:41.800

nude part of time, but I enjoyed the fraternity life the rest of the term. Yes. Uh I have a picture, I believe maybe an annual of our fraternity group, we met uh regularly as other fraternities and I was, I found out that there were things that

01:08:41.810 - 01:09:07.250

went on even in our fraternity that I was insensitive with and uh that of course that spirit somewhat, but all in all the type of men, boys in the, in the fraternity, the were oh fine fellas, fine fellas. Just the association with them in that kind

01:09:07.250 - 01:09:32.900

of a private atmosphere. I needed it. I really needed more. I guess I realized, yes, I did. I need to have contact with some of the things that boys have opportunity to. Well, for example, our fraternity sponsored what they call an annual dance and I have

01:09:33.050 - 01:09:56.260

in the annual, no uh Margaret Fitzpatrick wrote and she referred to me as her dancing partner. How much she enjoyed her dancing partner? Well, I had square danced as a boy. You familiar with square dancing? Well, I had grown up square dancing, but I never done

01:09:56.270 - 01:10:15.160

what I guess you referred to as round dancing, Just a couple. I hadn't done much of that. And this at this dance of course attended and I guess reading, she wrote that she realized that I was an amateur, but yet she referred to it in a

01:10:15.160 - 01:10:39.700

manner that she enjoyed her dancing partner. I don't know that you remember Mark Fitzpatrick, we've talked about. That's right, that's right. And she had her goal at the time I remember was to become Alabama's governor at one time, that my fraternity life was rather limited, but

01:10:39.700 - 01:10:58.620

I'm glad that I joined. You still have contacts with any of the men that you met, then. Very few. I kept rather close contact with Mr cox and was saddened this year to learn that he had passed away the last time I saw him was a

01:10:58.620 - 01:11:18.100

retired teachers meeting in Montgomery. He was also a teacher. Yes, he was, he was a principal, he was also a coach at one time and back in the war years when I had to serve as a coach and principal at our school, he was coaching and

01:11:18.110 - 01:11:39.770

very successful. So when I remember writing him and asking him to give me some pointers that I might use as coats to help our team. And I remember his reply was that his motto was um to to his boys to run the fastest and make the

01:11:39.770 - 01:12:02.140

most goals, which of course that's you ain't making gold in basketball. But other than that I haven't had the contacts, I'm sorry to say. And um I noticed also that you were a member when you came, you joined the baptist student union and the Y. M.

01:12:02.150 - 01:12:31.810

C. A. Was that because of the religious influence, I guess you'd say so. Has your family been active in church life? My family was of course I grew up in the baptist church rule church Church had services once a month. But yet that type of influence

01:12:31.990 - 01:12:55.610

last gone through life with me. Now I attended a baptist church and sang in the choir And at one time for a period of time taught 6th grade boys in Sunday School. And I can remember for some reason, I don't know why I attended training union

01:12:55.620 - 01:13:17.620

at the first baptist church downtown. But at one point in time I did for a period of time and I remember the director of the train union was uh, I think her name was Mac Lachlan, but she married judge girls. Remember that she and he were

01:13:17.620 - 01:13:38.790

dating at the time. Uh, why I mentioned that I don't have much significance. But I did have some experience with training union in the first church in Birmingham writing the street car. Of course, let me tell you this to give you some idea of the difference

01:13:38.800 - 01:14:09.980

in times then. And now as worker in the treasurer's office, it was my responsibility to make the deposits for the college and they deposit the bank that the college used was downtown. Uh, and I would ride the streetcar with that bag of money in my lab

01:14:11.680 - 01:14:26.990

to the bank as often as I need to make a deposit. I thought nothing about it. After you got off the streetcar on first Avenue, I had to walk about two blocks to the bank and yet you wouldn't think of being that open with money now.

01:14:27.730 - 01:14:50.040

And yet there was no thought whatsoever of any danger on my part that the students were paying their tuition weekly. Is that the deposit? Sure, well there wasn't a regular deposit. I don't recall going regularly. The students that was income coming in all along, you know,

01:14:50.050 - 01:15:11.660

that would have to be deposited. But and I mentioned earlier that many of the students paid in peace meals I referred to it instead of paying all my time. You might be interested to know that I had an article in the One issue of the Crimson

01:15:12.730 - 01:15:37.570

Crimson newspaper April 1929 virus correctly. And then in the article that I was asked to write the title of, it was many students pay on expenses and this is reading from that At present, we have approximately 800 students in Howard and about 40% of this number

01:15:37.580 - 01:16:04.760

are working at their spare hours to meet college expenses. A few are fortunate enough to earn all their expenses. And that gives you some idea of the number of students who did have other income from part time work. So you really don't think that right now,

01:16:04.760 - 01:16:26.940

I believe Sanford has the field, Most people feel that only upper middle class people can attend Sanford, but at that time it was people at work to make their way through. I think I had a way of being uh assistant bookkeeper, I knew the students back

01:16:26.950 - 01:16:47.110

financial background and who was working and who uh needed the income and so forth. So yeah, it was uh there were a lot of a lot of students that had to work to pay their expenses um I guess kind of a Uh wrap up our final

01:16:47.110 - 01:17:08.310

question, I want uh I found in your entrepreneur the 1931 uh class point says by just an honorable living, we may know that to Howard, we quit in part the debt we owe. Um do you feel that Howard shaped your life, do you think it prepared

01:17:08.310 - 01:17:30.710

you for the real world? You feel like you owed a debt to Howard and that you've repaid it? No, I haven't. I still, I'm indebted to Howard and uh yes, Howard did a great deal to shape my life. I wish we had time for me to

01:17:30.720 - 01:18:00.510

tell you what influence. Mr Lottie Johnson had me. I mentioned her earlier, she, she and I corresponded after I graduated. And incidentally Miss Lottie had been a teacher herself and she knew what teaching was and she knew what was facing me as perspective teacher and she

01:18:00.510 - 01:18:23.590

had not married at that time, she was getting middle aged or more then Professor thomas. The greek teacher and latin teacher. It was a will he, I noticed when I was there, I graduated that he frequented the office, you know and chatted to Miss Lottie and

01:18:23.590 - 01:18:44.870

after I left in our correspondent, she mentioned how nice professor thomas had been to her. And then a later letter she said Professor thomas has proposed marriage. And what would you advise me to do? I felt bad and of course that she would ask my advice.

01:18:44.870 - 01:19:03.980

I don't know that she really was serious about me advising. But my advice to her was if you love him and you think that you'd be happy, why not? And they did marry and I visit them after I moved here. I visited there in their home.

01:19:05.060 - 01:19:23.920

Was she older than you, considerably considerably older And was he about the same age? She was, he was several years older than she. And he had never married. Neither one of them had ever married. He had, he had lost his wife. Yes. And after they're married

01:19:23.930 - 01:19:43.790

uh I guess you might call it their honeymoon. They best in europe and visited many of the places that he was talking about and teaching them especially greek. You know a lot of the uh tour was in Greece. I think a big part of it. Let

01:19:43.790 - 01:20:12.240

me mention personalities. I must tell you this, that that was a lady lived near the campus. A widow who was lecturing manager at Underwood School. Are there any slave? And she had for a number of years sponsored what she called her college boy and she sponsored

01:20:12.240 - 01:20:38.270

this boy until he graduated. Then she would take on someone else. Well Cody bell who was working with Birmingham News at the time and a student there was her college boy until he graduated and uh for some reason she chose me to succeed him. What she

01:20:38.280 - 01:20:58.590

did was just remember you in nice ways. For example when I was there in the dormitory I mentioned she was a lunchroom manager, she would at least once a week bring me a big fruit, started fruit and leave it in my room. We didn't lock this,

01:20:58.660 - 01:21:15.360

don't go doors. So she'd come by at her convenience and I'd come in and find that box of fruit. She would invite me in her home on sunday morning for breakfast and did other things as long well until I graduated. And what was her name, Mrs

01:21:16.240 - 01:21:47.650

Mode Stacy. She had two daughters. They were grown and away from home. Her oldest daughter, Thelma was the wife of Mr Yarborough principle of very high school and she taught her later on she became I think was uh president of the Alabama uh classroom teachers association.

01:21:47.650 - 01:22:08.870

I know she was real active and very, very prominent in the professional field and her husband and daughter that's her oldest daughter. Yes and they lived at the time that I I'm thinking now her prominence in education that lived at, he was principal of high school

01:22:08.870 - 01:22:33.840

there. Mhm. I think when I think of Howard college natural, I think of mrs mold Stacy and certainly Mr mr Larry johnson who later became mrs about it, thomas. Um so you never felt, even though you were from the country, you came to the big city,

01:22:33.850 - 01:22:56.030

you were not a preacher boy, you didn't feel out of place. I wonder if there was much conflict between the fraternities and the preacher boys and the football players Or did it seem like a big happy atmosphere to you? I think your statement there would be

01:22:56.030 - 01:23:19.870

mine happy atmosphere so far as jealousy or fiction or conflicts in any way. I can't recall any and I'm not saying it was a perfect, perfect atmosphere. I'm not saying that. Uh but uh certainly I was Howard spirit that wrote us all pretty close together and

01:23:19.870 - 01:23:39.830

I I feel qualified to judge that since I was there in the office and had an opportunity to meet, as I said earlier, all the students and I knew them personally, at least their name because of their visit to the office, That sort of thing. You're

01:23:39.830 - 01:23:59.170

on the campus a lot now I think with your historical society work. And do you get that same feeling there now or do you think they made a mistake by moving the camp? No, I don't. I have said often and to different people how friendly it

01:23:59.180 - 01:24:16.790

appears that the students at Sanford are. I have wondered if when they see me walking across campus with my gray hair and usually maybe my coat on and maybe a tie. They recognize me as a visitor may be. Whether that's the reason they are so funny,

01:24:16.790 - 01:24:41.690

but I don't recall a time when they didn't greet me smile and how d you know, breeding. Now, when you mentioned about moving Howard, the first time I saw the campus under construction, all those bare hills, you see the trees and all uprooted it made you

01:24:41.700 - 01:25:07.110

feel like is howard doing the right thing. Will it ever be? Howard College and spirit and support? But Now that's actually moved here investment. We moved in 1950 investment and uh, I feel like that was a wise move and I certainly can say that Sanford is

01:25:08.320 - 01:25:31.280

hold, it appears to be a wholesome atmosphere over there. So you're proud, proud that you can tell people you were from college. Yeah. And you've been to some other campuses because you've gone to Wisconsin and michigan and new york city and you can still say you're

01:25:31.290 - 01:26:00.140

proud from your, from howard hit. He will always be dear to me and the association I had, there was uh, something to, to, it was remarkable in a person's life to have the opportunity that I had. I've been blessed, but, but you worked hard to get

01:26:00.140 - 01:26:28.060

it to, you had to do a lot. Well I can look back and see that there was a lot of time spent preparing to go to Howard. Yes, but I gave my father credit for uh asking me one sunday morning as I sat on the organ

01:26:28.310 - 01:26:49.610

stew coming away did I want to go to high school? That was in the The summer of 1922. I was 16 years old. I've gone as far as I could that I got a groove and see that was the door that opened up for me too,

01:26:50.330 - 01:27:18.170

go to high school and then once I got my experiencing high school taste of it, then I was looking forward to college and this mr Galloway as I mentioned and wants me to go to Howard and Howard. I have then extremely glass to have had positions

01:27:18.510 - 01:27:39.560

that I enjoyed. I was, I went from Howard to Real town high school as a teacher and with that One year of teaching experience before going to college plus the six week summer school plus that year at real town. It was close enough to three years

01:27:39.560 - 01:28:01.560

experience for the state department to grant me privileged to become principal of the high school, had to have three years of teaching experience to be a principle. They waved a little time there. Uh and I was elected by the county board of education Principle of real

01:28:01.560 - 01:28:24.690

town where I served for 18 years and then Bird and I Left real town in 1948 And spent 15 consecutive months at Peabody College. But in the meantime and the after I was elected principal, I might say this, that when I graduated from Howard, I did

01:28:24.690 - 01:28:40.620

not have enough courses in education since I had to switch. You see when I did to get a professional certificate, had a temporary teaching certificate. So when I went to real time with a temporary teaching certificate and was elected principle the following year, I had to

01:28:40.620 - 01:28:57.880

get a professional certificate. That's when I went to University of Alabama for that. And in 1936, you see my master's degree from the university. Like, can you think of any comparisons between the lights on the two campuses? Of course you were married when you went to

01:28:57.880 - 01:29:21.530

Alabama the first summer? I wasn't, I was, but I was, I went in the summer 31 and then I was out for 32 married in 33. And then in 1930 for my wife and I both went back to university and she entered the field, home economics

01:29:21.530 - 01:29:42.080

and, and I was in graduate school and uh school administration. Uh the university is a lot larger campus than Howard. Uh Did you get a different feeling from the students Now, I was at the university only during the summer school. So that's different, you see to

01:29:42.090 - 01:30:03.040

the regular students that type of spirit and atmosphere that you find in regular. Uh large percent of the students at the university at the time I was there where students started doing graduate work. You know, there wasn't any athletic program in other words on the way

01:30:05.440 - 01:30:27.540

campus activities were very limited so for and I was comparing Howard or Sanford with university, I wouldn't be able to make a comparison step, see that Sanford has gone back to football. I was a little surprised at that. And what do you think of it? Well,

01:30:27.540 - 01:30:45.320

I can't help but wonder if it was the last thing. I'm not questioning too much. But uh I see they need to win a few games. So you you didn't need the football for your for your alumni support. You Well know that that's one way of

01:30:45.320 - 01:31:09.340

putting it. No, but it doesn't doubt my spirit. So I'm still anxious to support. Okay thank you for talking with me. Mr Doherty. I've really enjoyed the conversation and I think I've probably got a better understanding of Howard college and how it was like by letting

01:31:09.340 - 01:31:32.100

you talk with me and I really appreciate the time that you spent with me Mr thomas it's mutual, far as the pleasure being with you and having you in our home and I know that I've rambled and uh when you listen to it you probably chuck

01:31:32.100 - 01:31:49.740

was out of the way I express myself but I felt unprepared in that I didn't know exactly what you would expect of me. So uh but what I've said, I've enjoyed. I've enjoyed reminiscing it's been a pleasure to have you in our home and I hope

01:31:49.740 - 01:31:54.460

that your future will be bright, Sanford and.