00:00:01.720 - 00:00:22.670

This is an interview with Dr Ray Em Atchison for the stanford University oral history program by Cheryl Rice in his office at stanford University on november 13th 1985. Dr. Acheson. Let's get started. If we can buy you. Tell me a little bit about your background, your

00:00:22.680 - 00:00:48.870

parents, what they did and that sort of thing. All right. I was born October the 8th 1921 and my parents were Edward Walter, Atchison and jesse lee barber. They lived in Shelby Alabama. Edward walter had grown to manhood on a farm near alabaster. My mother's parents

00:00:48.880 - 00:01:06.750

had come from the north and so my mother and my dad met there in Shelby. That's a small town just below Columbiana. And so at the age of two or three I moved with my parents to Columbiana Shelby Iron Works was disbanded. That's where my father

00:01:06.750 - 00:01:25.550

worked. I grew to manhood in Columbiana. I know that in this interview you need spellings of some words and I'll be glad to spell them any of them to help you out on that as we go along. So I spent my young days in Columbiana. I

00:01:25.550 - 00:01:45.950

went through the 11th grade and then the last year I was graduated from Montevallo High School. My dad worked near Mount Avala at a mining camp, which might be interested in my spiritual experience. I joined the first baptist church of Columbiana when I was 11 years

00:01:45.950 - 00:02:05.370

old. And the pastor was uh DZ Willie whose son Davis later became a professor at Howard College and then he became the executive director of the Southern baptist Historical Commission. and he was the first I believe of the directors of the Southern baptist Historical Commission And

00:02:05.370 - 00:02:25.080

I think this interviewing this type of thing is what he initiated inaugurated. Now. You're interested primarily in my getting to Howard College, there's some other things I'd like to know on your background. What was the size of your family? How many brothers and sisters? There were

00:02:25.080 - 00:02:47.330

just two of us in the family and I have a sister, Eleanor, uh Eleanor Williams, she is married to dr Otis c Williams and he was the longtime director of evangelism for the state of Alabama. Dr Williams, you know, was a pastor at Langdale and Greenville

00:02:47.340 - 00:03:12.260

and various places in Alabama. And we have a distinguished member of our family. My namesake is the head of the department of periodontal ology at Harvard University and he was born to dr and mrs Williams when I was in the army, his name is Ray Clayton

00:03:12.940 - 00:03:32.450

Williams and he is head of the department of dentistry. I'll spell that big word for you later, periodontal ology at Harvard. Alright, so there's just the two of us in the family, the Williams. Doctor Miss Williams live now in Montgomery. He's retired? Well, that's the background

00:03:32.450 - 00:03:53.490

of my family? Just the two of us? Okay, so what led up to your going to Howard? Why did you want to go? All right, well, when I was living in Columbiana, it was a very popular thing for Howard students to have youth revivals. Do they

00:03:53.490 - 00:04:14.480

have those now the type of thing. They're very popular then. And people like uh William weaver who later became dr William weaver President, first President Mobile College came down and Roscoe Griffin and Margaret McClellan. Those students, those um outstanding spiritual leaders at Howard College came down

00:04:15.440 - 00:04:35.060

and lead youth revivals. So they impressed me, you know these are Howard College students. I looked up to them with all and I started thinking well then I will go to Howard College eventually. Then when we moved that last year of my high school career to

00:04:35.070 - 00:04:55.150

place near Montevallo. I still was thinking now how can I go to Howard College? What shall I do now? My future brother in law uh Dr Williams. He wasn't a doctor at that time. Nor was he yet married, was a ministerial student at Howard College. Uh

00:04:55.160 - 00:05:14.750

So he influenced me say I just assumed that I was going to Howard College. So when I got to uh Dogwood Grove, that was the name of that place. Dogwood Grove a mining camp. And spent that last year of my high school days there. That's where

00:05:14.750 - 00:05:36.730

you guys moved to when we moved from Columbiana to Dogwood drove the depression came on. My parents had been a fluent before this time but the depression came on and we lost houses and lands. Oh that's another story. I have to record that sometimes but it

00:05:36.740 - 00:05:54.210

wasn't your father a minor. My father was not a minor. My father had been in the lumber business and he had been in the grocery business. So he ran this commissary at Dogwood Grove. You know what a commissary is. It's a big old store where you

00:05:54.210 - 00:06:09.510

can go in there to get a sack of flour and you can come away with a woman's dress or you know you need any item of clothing and just a huge huge store. The commissary is the forerunner of a store like a kmart or some of

00:06:09.510 - 00:06:29.900

these is a huge building and had food in it. It had all sorts of things. And my dad ran that commissary there at that mining camp. See once we had departed from Columbiana and moved over there. Uh It was a new lifestyle for us because we

00:06:29.900 - 00:06:49.950

moved into a mining mining camp house, it wasn't painted, wasn't even painted, it was up on stilts up on the side of the mountain. And I learned a new lifestyle. Sometimes I'm going to record my experiences of living with the miners living at a mining camp

00:06:49.950 - 00:07:12.490

and and showing how they lived and how they worked and what they believed it was an eye opening experience. But at Montevallo there was a pastor named dr fred B. Pearson. P. E. A. R. S. O. N. Dr fred B. Pearson who knew me, I had

00:07:12.490 - 00:07:34.120

seen him at retreats and associational meetings. Now that was the big thing. we in Shelby County we would have night meetings and people would become not just the annual association, but periodically they'd have training union people all come together in the county one church. All right,

00:07:34.130 - 00:07:51.880

so it's a pretty good place to court, you know, finding girlfriends. But Dr Pearson, you know, was one of the leaders and he would talk to the group and I got to know him. All right. Then, when time came for me to make up my mind

00:07:51.890 - 00:08:11.010

about a career, I knew that I in in one way or another, I was going to get to come to Howard College. So Dr Pearson got me in his automobile and we went to old East Lake. Old Howard College in 1939. This was in the summer

00:08:11.020 - 00:08:32.420

of 1939 we went into Major Davis's office. Now Major Davis was the new president. Major Davis had just become president. See I was a freshman at Howard College the year that Major Davis assumed the presidency. So we were Frost together. And Dr Pearson said I have

00:08:32.420 - 00:08:52.430

here a young man who wants to come to uh college but he does not have uh enough money. Do you have a job for him? And Major Davis asked can you type and I said yes sir and then he gave me a job working in the

00:08:52.430 - 00:09:10.880

registrar's office. And so for three years I worked my way through college by working in the registrar's office. You said that your family was a fluent before the depression. Is that why you had no money? That's right. So did your father help you at all in

00:09:10.880 - 00:09:28.390

your experience? Now here's what happened now. This is an interesting story in itself. He let me work in the summers in the commissary and that gave me some money and of course I had food. Uh he helped me with food. Now my dad did not make

00:09:28.400 - 00:09:44.440

a large salary. I wish I knew now exactly how much that was, but it was a small amount, you know working in the commissary, we did have the rent free the house next door. Uh and we had all the food that we needed so I could,

00:09:44.450 - 00:10:02.260

you know live that way. Now my first year at Howard College, I lived in a little house behind baker's dairy out in the iron dale area, you know where that is? I think I've heard of it and my future brother in law Otis Williams and a

00:10:02.260 - 00:10:21.820

young man by the name of Henry Pete. P. W. T. Henry Pete. And I batch we lived in that little house and matched and that was some experience that first year, that was the first year, that first year. Um we lived in that little house. One

00:10:21.820 - 00:10:42.310

of us would cook for the week, the other would make up the beds and the other would wash the dishes. Do you recall what the cost was? What was the cost of tuition and uh now it was I believe that was virtually free because a man

00:10:42.310 - 00:10:59.100

by the name of Mr mara, jimmy mara, I think he's still alive. I need to talk with him. Mr mara. And that his house is there over there. This little house was behind his house and I think he just had sympathy for Howard students and wanted

00:10:59.100 - 00:11:14.360

to help because in those days howard students just really had to scrounge around to get money to go. I mean I would say they were not very many who were affluent and could just really afford outright to go to college. I had to do something, some

00:11:14.360 - 00:11:28.060

kind of work somewhere. So many of the students did that. I would say maybe the percentage was higher then than now, I can't verify that. And you don't have to trace that down. But mr mara, let us have that house I think rent free. And it

00:11:28.060 - 00:11:47.510

was just the two of you and it was the three of us in that house, otis Williams, Henry Pete and I the three of us. Uh And then we would um of course on the weekends we'd ride from uh East Lake back down to Dogwood. Uh

00:11:48.370 - 00:12:07.480

Okay, so you're now you're now at Howard we're at Howard because type I was put to work typing and that way I was able to. All right now the money came from the government. Have you ever heard of the N. Y. A. Program? National Youth Administration,

00:12:07.490 - 00:12:27.370

N. Y. A. Oh, it was a plan inaugurated by Roosevelt helping students. I made 30 cents an hour, 30 cents. And that was the way, of course tuition was much lower than than that. But that was the way that I was able to go to school

00:12:27.380 - 00:12:45.810

through the help of my my parents. Uh and this, so you got on the campus, what were those first days like? Did Sanford meet up to your expectations that you said you wanted to go? So bad? And when I got to the campus I was a

00:12:45.810 - 00:13:07.200

little frightened, scared a student. I was indeed lonely and lost even though my future brother in law, Otis Williams was a student and I knew some of the students, a woman by the name of Margaret McClellan was very kind to me and she had come to

00:13:07.200 - 00:13:28.620

Dogwood on one of the youth programs And she made me feel at home and I made friends. It didn't take long to make friends because the student body was about 600 students. Can you believe that 600 and it would be easy, fairly easy for a person

00:13:29.410 - 00:13:45.780

over a few weeks time to get to know many of the students. You see uh when you have that small a number And then the people and B. S. U. B. S. U. Was the thing to make people welcome. They had the welcome party. They did

00:13:45.780 - 00:14:07.020

all sorts of things to go out of their way uh to make the students feel at home. Um they would have the big party in the gym, the welcome party, you dress up in all types of costumes and things like that and then oh yes there

00:14:07.020 - 00:14:22.730

were the B. S. U. Was the big thing, in fact it was just as important in those days, if not more so to be president of the B. S. You and it wants to be president of the student body that interested and later and later in

00:14:22.730 - 00:14:42.070

my career, this is interesting. Um I prayed whether I should run for president of student body in my senior year or BBS you president and I chose to be Bs you president, but so you could see uh some significance of the issue. The president. Yes, you

00:14:42.070 - 00:15:03.500

had a big, big job because we had so many activities going, I guess we're talking about the spiritual atmosphere aren't you know of the campus and so the the college church was nearby, have you heard of? Alright, very very old and distinguished church, that was the

00:15:03.510 - 00:15:26.860

college church. The others were, you know long distance away maybe over iron dale. But uh the college church was two blocks away from the campus, realized that see just two blocks away. Whereas here you don't have any one campus church shades mountain shades crest vestavia Dawson

00:15:26.870 - 00:15:43.720

have those there it was one, so we funneled our activities into the church and the B. S. You would get the students to go to Wednesday night prayer meeting, get to have the college department, get them on Sundays. We had mission band, We had prayer partners.

00:15:43.730 - 00:16:00.060

Have you ever heard of this one prayer partners? Do they have prayer partners now we we used to have uh prayer partners and we had one of the biggest things that we had was morning watch. We had every morning in the chapel and old main, the

00:16:00.060 - 00:16:20.900

big building on the campus at 7:30. And it was it was really well well attended mission band. There were people who were going to be missionaries people I had in my class like Villian Langley who became a missionary later she was one of them and there

00:16:20.900 - 00:16:40.100

were other others who became missionaries I believe. I have them listed somewhere here anyway. These people wanted to practice missions now. So they would uh they would meet periodically and talk about what they should do missions around the world and missions here. And then they would

00:16:40.100 - 00:16:56.980

go to a place mainly over to Gate City. Have you ever heard of Gate City? It's not not far from the campus and it's a place where they had a lot of apartments apartment complex and many people there who were not affluent if you know what

00:16:56.980 - 00:17:14.080

I mean. And they needed someone to care for them. So the students would go over there for their mission endeavors and take care of them. But there are many activities of the B. S. You. It was very, very active and very, I don't want to use

00:17:14.080 - 00:17:34.170

the word powerful, that's not exactly the term but it was very very active and influential. B. S. U. Was prominent at this time. What other kinds of activities or clubs were prominent? All right now, if you look in these these annuals, you'll see that a number

00:17:34.170 - 00:17:54.390

of these clubs that they had then are still with us. Now some of them I think have gone out like they had the sororities and fraternities. Now that was the big thing. You either where either now I know this is oversimplification but you either belong to

00:17:54.390 - 00:18:19.600

B. S. You and that group or you belong to sororities and fraternities. Now there was a third group on the campus. The football people, football was major. You have no idea today how significant football was on that campus football. What what is it? Alright. It was

00:18:19.610 - 00:18:38.700

talked about the players were the key men, some of the key men on campus, just just as you had people like William weaver and Wyatt Pope and these other campus leaders walking around. Well you had these football boys walking around and they were always wearing their

00:18:38.700 - 00:18:57.510

jackets, you know the big H. On their age club and we all looked up to them. I say we all that's a strong statement there. But they were the leaders. In fact I'm not traced down, you know what happened to some of those. I do know

00:18:57.520 - 00:19:21.870

one of them. Gerow Hodges is a trustee now G. E. R. O. W. Gerow Hodges and his wife, Mary Louise, Shirley Hodges was a classmate of mine. So the football boys in addition to winning those games. So they played some very strong teams in those days

00:19:21.880 - 00:19:39.870

and they had the freshman to play and we all, you know, looked at the freshman football players and then they had the upper level players. Okay, we're the ministerial association, a part of the B. S. You. It was one of the they were considered the same

00:19:39.870 - 00:19:59.100

thing. It was it was a separate organization but it worked in B. S. You and we had different officers in B. S. You. So people, the ministerial association would be represented in B. S. You. Now, once each week we had a council meeting and we would

00:19:59.100 - 00:20:16.910

meet in renfro hall in the lobby of Renfroe hall. And we would have the various representatives of B. S. You, like the person who's in charge of mission band, person who was in charge of prayer partners. Person who was in charge. Uh well you name it

00:20:16.910 - 00:20:31.440

these other activities. So we go around the room and each person will have a room full of these people and each person would report on his activities and what we need to be doing to get these people more spiritual or get them in, in the church's

00:20:31.440 - 00:20:47.970

active in their churches and train union are go out there. We need to go out that gate city, There's a family over there that we need to help and all like that. So we had had fun with our meetings. You said renfro hall with a lot

00:20:47.970 - 00:21:08.000

of enthusiasm. It was so wonderful. Renfro was the main dormitory there. It was the main dormitory and it had a large porch and the students would sit out on this porch in rocking chairs and would watch people go by and here's a little tidbit. You may

00:21:08.000 - 00:21:25.000

not want to include this, but when I came back to howard to teach, I walked across the campus at that time I had uh I was living uh in a house, I was boarding rooming, It was not boring, I was rooming in a house by the

00:21:25.000 - 00:21:49.420

campus and I'd walk across the campus down to the okey dokey. The coke shop. Okey dokey told the okey dokey. Uh so I'd walk across the campus that to the okey dokey to have my meals to eat. It's a little shop. Little shop. Yeah, that have

00:21:49.420 - 00:22:09.540

different things that is the main hangout for for the students. So that was on campus, it was just off campus, off campus. In the business district. You see the businesses that uh these firms were right jammed up against the campus. Yeah. So I'd walk across the

00:22:09.550 - 00:22:31.590

campus and My future wife said that she saw me, she had sit on the porch in a rocking chair and watched me walk across the campus. Were there a lot of marriages that came out one of? Yes. Oh I'll tell you, we took great delight in

00:22:31.590 - 00:22:56.200

watching the couple's, how all this developed one. Special one. Uh dr louis Armstrong, he became doctor louis Armstrong, a doctor and Ann weaver now, you know her now mrs Armstrong of our library, you know her all right now and was a leader in B. S. You,

00:22:56.210 - 00:23:21.840

she was a spiritual leader on the campus and and and louis they courted and here was the way of that where they courted. We had a girl's dormitory across the street from Ruhama and it's called Mamie Mel smith hall, Mamie Mel smith hall. It later became

00:23:22.860 - 00:23:42.130

uh the hospital, East End Hospital, did you know that? And footnote, my daughter was born in Easton Hospital, but but we would go on sunday nights, there was a big thing on sunday night after church, you go you walk over to the maybe mel smith hall

00:23:42.130 - 00:24:05.020

and have a big lobby there and the couples would sit around and you look around and see now who is with whom tonight? And you know uh and out of the group came Vance vernon and his wife Sue, They became missionaries, Vance vernon and Sue. So

00:24:05.030 - 00:24:19.570

I'd have to get a list of those I could think of more later for you, but we watched it was a good bit of them that ended up getting married. Oh yes. Oh yes. What was the percentage of the population? Male, female, fairly even? It was

00:24:19.570 - 00:24:35.150

about it would be fairly, even it wouldn't be the percentage that we've had it here in recent years. More women and men. Now you see, you had the football team and also basketball then was also very prominent. Now we did have a, a degree of a

00:24:35.150 - 00:24:54.450

cosmopolitan atmosphere because these football players came from various places. Their names sound like Sears, Roebuck catalog or something or dictionary, you know, they came from the north and you look through and you could see the interesting names that those football players had, I guess they were

00:24:54.450 - 00:25:17.840

recruited? I'm not sure exactly how that came about. That would be interesting to find out how they recruited. Now. Coach Bancroft Billy Bancroft was the coach at the time and he was honored recently here on the campus. Um so the percentages of male and female were

00:25:17.850 - 00:25:41.990

fairly even. What about minority students, were there many? No, I can't recall are thinking now here's a minority students and certainly there was not a black student. We didn't we didn't have any blacks. I mean, we think about that, we had, how would you define minority,

00:25:41.990 - 00:26:01.090

would you, would you think of some jews as being minorities? Okay, now we did have some who had come there now for pre med students. I remember one premed student who was there and there were a few of the minority students, but not not very many

00:26:01.440 - 00:26:20.800

of these people who were there at Howard College that time were as I say, the largest percentage would be a larger percentage I think of ministers than we have now. We probably have more ministerial students here now, but I would say the percentage of ministerial students

00:26:20.810 - 00:26:34.930

at Howard College was greater than it is now. So you had these men coming for the ministry study for the ministry. We didn't have many choices. Of course is to take if you look and see that the curriculum there, you don't have a wide offer. I

00:26:34.930 - 00:26:50.590

mean you're gonna either be history or sociology or english or some of those. You don't have the ones that we have here. Now the large university um one thing I do want to ask you, you talked about the Okey dokey and people went out there to

00:26:50.590 - 00:27:11.710

eat stuff. Was there a place on campus? Was there a cafeteria? There was a cafeteria was established later but the main meeting place was Ma Killian's mal Killian's see uh Alright well Maki in took a keen interest in the students and she just allowed students and

00:27:11.710 - 00:27:28.610

you could go there and get a good meal for a reason, a small amount and I'd like you to have all these vegetables. Are you familiar with this type of place? My wife and I have discovered them at various campuses that we visited somewhere near the

00:27:28.610 - 00:27:41.480

campus. A woman who loves to cook and she puts all these good vegetables all this on the table and you go and you pay a certain amount. She never knows exactly how many she's going to have per day. But the word gets out, you know, go

00:27:41.480 - 00:28:01.990

eat there. But the the real gathering place and I haven't told you this one. Now the okey dokey was near the front of the campus, across the street, but we had a little coke shop there on the campus in the center of barry field. That was

00:28:01.990 - 00:28:18.730

our football field. Barry B err berry field. All right now see you have berry field right here. In the center was a little coke shop and that was the hangout place between classes. You'd either go down across the street to the Okie dokie there or you

00:28:18.730 - 00:28:38.530

would uh hang out here. The real cafeterias were down in Woodlawn if you wanted a real meal. Now when I came back to teach, there was a very nice cafeteria across the street, but not when I was a student, I didn't have that. Okay. Um let's

00:28:38.530 - 00:29:07.980

talk a little bit about Major Davis. Gladly Major. Davis was a giant of a man, Major was first up. He came there at an appropriate time. If you know anything about the history of the college, you'll know that By 1939 the college was heavily in debt

00:29:08.060 - 00:29:30.280

and the Baptists were almost ready to lose it if that's the way to express it. The the president dr tv Neil. So some of the students said was disgruntled. He was not very cordial to the students, to the student leaders. The baptist looked around and they

00:29:30.280 - 00:29:54.050

wanted a man who would take over and really put this uh college back on his feet. They needed somebody who's a real businessman. So they found Major Davis, Harlan G. Davis and major Davis told them, I understand. I will assume the presidency. If you will let

00:29:54.050 - 00:30:10.630

mr frank P. Sanford of Liberty, National Life Insurance Company, be the chairman of my board of trustees. Have you heard that before? And so there you have a team and they went to work and then later now a Hamilton's read, have you heard the name? A

00:30:10.630 - 00:30:36.690

Hamilton's read uh A Hamilton's read became a vice president. Uh You see when I was, you've heard of dr reed R. E. I. D. Now at first we had when I was their first year like you have a president, you'd have to Dean's We were talking

00:30:36.690 - 00:30:57.850

about the war years. In fact that Pearl Harbor was in December of 41. The when President Roosevelt made his speech uh the next day. See that Pearl Harbor was on a Sunday and I had been to my home at Dogwood, out in your mind a violin.

00:30:58.720 - 00:31:19.260

I had caught a bus over the main highway and on the way um home back to Birmingham, I heard Pearl Harbor and they were all talking about Pearl Harbor, Pearl Harbor. You know what's this? Well there was the war upon us. We had actually come upon

00:31:19.260 - 00:31:38.660

the war and we knew that we were going to do something the next day the president made the speech and we were let out of class to hear the speech that he made in Congress And you know, that's when he declared war on Japan. This was

00:31:39.600 - 00:31:58.440

the time. All right now then some of the students that men enlisted rather quickly so that they would become officers and get the better place. The various branches of the service had representatives to come to us and we would meet in the chapel and like a

00:31:58.450 - 00:32:20.340

man from E. R. C. Would talk to us and say now here are the benefits of joining the Army Reserve Corps. Are the Air Force man would come and you know the spirit of Americanism and that was booming. You know, they were over there over there.

00:32:20.480 - 00:32:38.080

We've we've got to go And the sense of urgency just grabbed some of the students in a way they went to the war. And of course these people who talked to the various groups, the representatives, you know, they would get their students all worked up And

00:32:38.080 - 00:33:03.600

the ones who were left there by my 4th year were mainly the ministerial students and a few others who couldn't pass the physical exam. So the population was depleted and you had the women students were their ministerial students not have to follow the draft or oh

00:33:03.610 - 00:33:26.730

well the ministerial students were not called into the service. There was no real problem with that. In fact some of the students became uh ministers at that time and you didn't have to go to the service. But you had, as I said, there's a large percentage

00:33:26.740 - 00:33:47.170

or a big percentage of population with the ministerial students, those religious leaders, they didn't have to go. But the others were either just waiting to see what happened. Are they joined the Reserve Corps to try to uh permit them to graduate. See these uh various services

00:33:47.170 - 00:34:04.840

were saying now look join our service and we'll let you graduate. And that's what we were told in E. R. C. But they couldn't always keep their word because the war quickens and I had to go in six weeks before graduation. And something happened to me

00:34:04.840 - 00:34:25.470

that I don't know whether it's ever happened before or since I was given my degree. I was graduated and I never finished. I mean that's what I mean is I never had to take the last six weeks of courses I was given the grades that I

00:34:25.470 - 00:34:39.000

made admit semester. I'll have to go back sometime and see what's actually written on my transcript. But the trustees voted this for me. You're the only exception. As far as I know, I had such a high average and I was about the only one involved in

00:34:39.000 - 00:34:55.920

this. But some of the other fellas who were with me and didn't have quite as high on average as I did when they went into service and served and then came back. I taught them, I taught some of the people that I had gone in service

00:34:55.920 - 00:35:16.480

with. All right now, one of the significant thing about that is that the V 12 program came in the year after I left. That's when the V 12 program was very prominent. And that's what saved, uh, the college financially with the students off to war, uh,

00:35:16.490 - 00:35:37.600

depleted population. How are you going to get enough students to, to keep this college open? What you gonna do? So the people, the historians say major Davis saved the campus again because he was um, inviting the V 12 program to come in the navy program. Now,

00:35:37.600 - 00:35:53.040

if you want to know something about the V. 12 years later and you need somebody else to interview interview my wife because those were her years. And she could tell you all about life under the V 12 program. She knows more about that than I do.

00:35:53.040 - 00:36:13.020

Because see I was, I was gone. What exactly did the program do? They trained officers right there. They trained the students, Navy students. They trained them. They drill them, they marched them on barry field, they gave them lessons in math and, and you know, so they

00:36:13.030 - 00:36:30.660

go to school, they went to school degrees, they had their degrees. That's something that should be explored. Now tell dr Reicher that If she doesn't have an interview with someone who was there at the V 12 years, she should, because that was really a fascinating year.

00:36:30.780 - 00:36:52.590

You see on this here, 1940 for you see, they featured this and they're the men, maybe mel smith hall, you see coming out and with their their uniforms on. So these were the war years, you look and I see they're marching on the field, You see

00:36:52.590 - 00:37:10.050

this in 1940 for the year after I was there. Um Now is anything else that we need to talk about the war years? Now, some of the professors went into service. I haven't made a list of these, but I know dr Davison did dr vernon Davidson

00:37:10.050 - 00:37:27.590

went into the Navy as a Navy chaplain, I believe. Dr irons, did I have to recheck these things before? The majority of the students left to join the war. What was the attitude on campus? What was it like? Were they scared? Did they want to stay,

00:37:27.590 - 00:37:49.350

neutral attitude? It was frustration, Complete frustration because we didn't know what to expect in those days. We did not have television to watch, you know, really, what was going on? So how we found out in, in about these things. One way was to go to the

00:37:49.350 - 00:38:08.210

movies and they had the newsreel. So you heard about this. And so they would show these newsreels of the tanks rumbling through Africa North Africa, see the north African campaign was earlier. And boy, we, we were wondering now when are we going to be called in,

00:38:08.220 - 00:38:24.680

what are we going to, where we're going? And so just as at any other time you'd have people, some of them very patriotic going around saying let's go and others, you know, afraid frightened, not quite sure what was going to happen. So it was a time

00:38:24.680 - 00:38:38.870

of frustration on the campus. I believe that's what I would call it. The time of frustration and not so much is being afraid, but just being frustrated because you're not sure what's going to happen to you. Well, you think about it this way some of these

00:38:38.870 - 00:38:50.960

boys who we're thinking about wives, what were they going to do? I mean you've been courting a girl for a long time. What are you going to marry? What are you gonna do? I mean you gonna provide for you going to marry and march off to

00:38:50.960 - 00:39:05.330

war and and leave her at home with your parents or her parents? What are you gonna do? That posed a problem. There are many matches as we indicated earlier that were made at Howard college. That was a very fine place to find a wife. But when

00:39:05.330 - 00:39:22.920

the war came on, you wonder, well, what are we going to do is go wait till I get back to, to marry someone. So it was a change changed atmosphere. But now the bs you came to the front and the spiritual tone of the campus was

00:39:22.920 - 00:39:39.490

strong because there's where your spirituality comes in. All right. It's a time of war, but we need to be spiritual and we can stay on an even keel here, not lose our heads if we maintain spirituality. What was that other thing that we were going to

00:39:39.490 - 00:40:00.520

talk about since our time is about gone about you came back to Sanford? Yes. All right. Well, get me to Sanford. Two big things about Sanford. The difference between Howard and Sanford, different aspects of that and the whole controversy of the move. All right. Let me

00:40:00.520 - 00:40:16.790

tell you about the controversy of the move first. This ties in with what we have just been saying is that after the war there was a strong influx of students. Uh, we had the G. I. Bill of Rights. We could go to school where we wanted

00:40:16.790 - 00:40:37.720

to, our tuition was paid for our books supplies. In fact, I used my G. I. Bill all the way through for a Doctor's degree except maybe a few dollars. So we had uh, the benefits of the G. I. Bill. Therefore many of the students, the men

00:40:37.720 - 00:41:00.130

could now come come back uh to school or could go to school for the first time and believe you meet the atmosphere in the classroom changed because there were many of these men who had seen just raw realism and they had been accustomed to giving orders

00:41:00.140 - 00:41:14.680

and it was difficult for them to take instructions. Sometime from teachers. I take the time to tell you all about the experiences I had on that. But I did have one stand up one time in class, I told him something and he stood up and saluted

00:41:14.690 - 00:41:29.290

me and said yes sir and sat down and I had all sorts of problems. And when I tried to teach up a student something that was romantic and appointment is romantic and he was a realist. He had seen death on the battlefield. It's hard to get,

00:41:29.300 - 00:41:46.700

get them, uh, to have their attention focused. These, these fellows were restless. All right now, you have the influx of students, you have buildings that are falling down. You've heard that many times about the plaster people to tell you about the plaster falling balls. So major

00:41:46.700 - 00:42:12.460

Davis uh, decided that he could either buy land surrounding the campus and build additional structures spread out there or go to a new campus. And as it turned out, his first plan was to understand is to buy the land, but people made such exorbitant prices on

00:42:12.460 - 00:42:27.700

it. You know, once you, they learned he wanted my house, which is on the campus of the campus nearby, then it went up so much on the price. It turned out that it would not have been feasible to stay on that campus. And that's another story

00:42:27.700 - 00:42:45.800

about the university getting the land, you know, over here. But it was just a natural move. I've heard major Davis say many times that it was difficult for him to get the baptist of the state to sanction the move. You know, there's tradition, you know, Howard

00:42:45.800 - 00:43:06.370

Colleges? Howard College in East Lake, but where will we ever get the money to construct buildings way across town? He told me that if he could convince the state convention, if they would build one structure, then he would take it from there. And some of the

00:43:06.370 - 00:43:24.960

preachers, some of the others said to him, oh, it'll just be filled with bats. You won't ever get up enough money if you build the first structure, you know, Sanford Hall, that was the first one. If you construct that. And then um, mm did not have

00:43:24.960 - 00:43:42.200

any money for the others just go and fill up with batch. So we had to move, had to move because they had so many students coming in. The influx of students and the inability to get the land and the cost of refurbishing all those old broken

00:43:42.200 - 00:44:03.780

down buildings over that. Now, what was the other thing that we have remained? I want to talk about the difference between the campus of Howard College. Now, then over here we've become a university and you have a large number of students. I'm not going to say

00:44:03.790 - 00:44:21.870

that the spiritual ATMOS atmosphere is not as significant here as it was over there. What what you're dealing with is, I've already told you, is that over there, you have, the student body was much smaller and the percentage of people, I would say uh, in religious

00:44:21.870 - 00:44:45.150

activities, the would be larger. And your campus leaders, many, many of your campus leaders were the preacher boys or the preachers. Uh, you see now, you've got uh these others who've come in and uh you've got the law school, you have all these very schools here,

00:44:45.160 - 00:45:09.930

such a diverse grouping, you have a university here. And even though we have a campus ministries and so forth, isn't it harder now to get the campus people so many people interested in campus ministries, uh and they go their divergent ways, even in the spirituality, because

00:45:09.930 - 00:45:20.140

we have the different churches. Uh now, there's one thing that I want to tell you that, I don't know what's recorded anywhere and but it's gone in, it