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and weaver armstrong for the Sanford University oral history program by even Marie McCray v at the horrible gene Davis Library on the stanford campus Birmingham Alabama conducted thursday august 14th 1986. Um could you just tell me something, where were you born and where you lived as

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a child? I was born in anniston Alabama, but I lived in Talladega all of my life and I went to the public schools in Talladega and graduated from the Talladega High School in 1938. And my father had a department store, a small department store in the

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city and my grandfather operated a grocery store and a local drug store. So the town was Talladega was full of weavers and I had a lot of relatives in that town and grew up with a lot of association with my first cousins and so forth in

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the, in Talladega. And I have a brother in business in Talladega still, he operates a shoe store and my older brother was president of mobile college and the first president, he retired just two years ago, dr William weaver. He had been a pastor in Sylacauga and

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then Alabama bandits decided to build a university in mobile or a college in mobile and asked him to head that up. Howard, He graduated about 1940, real close when he came up here at the school, we drove him over here and I saw the campus and

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all the dilapidated buildings and I thought why does he want to come to Howard College because the buildings were not in very good condition at that time. And then two years later I found myself wanting to come over here because I got interested in the school

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and due to his enthusiasm and how much he enjoyed it. And then two years, three years after I finished another brother came and pre mad. And then the next brother was ready for college and I said you don't have to come to Howard College just because

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three of us have already been there, but he had gotten so excited over because of what we would tell about our life over there, that he came also so far of us graduated at Howard College enjoy. It was just the spirit of professors and the spirit

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of the student body that made us enjoy the school. There was a lot of the spirit, Oh yes, of course the student body was much smaller back then we didn't, we did not have 1000 students at that time, It was less than 1000 and so you

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knew so many people that made it well, a good place to be and you knew the professors, so, so well too. Right. So that was, that was one thing that was beneficial to us, was that close contact with the professor, what religious affiliation? Older brother who

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was the first to come here came as a ministerial student and he went into the baptist ministry and Met a student at the end of my freshman year, Louis Armstrong and he was a ministerial student. And so we married in 1943. So I was closely associated

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with the Baptist church all these years. We were on a date actually, I had a blind date with someone else and about three or four couples went somewhere that night and Lewis was with someone else. But the following week he called to ask me to go

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out and that was near the end of our freshman year. And so we dated all through our, through the rest of the college years. And we were pretty well known on campus by the professors that they knew there was a love affair going on because he

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would come after meet me after class so many times and walk to the next class. We'll be taking my books and things like that. So we had a lot of teasing about our love affair, but he went on to the seminary when he graduated from Mhm.

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The next year we were married and I went to seminary also and graduated. We both graduated about 1945. Well he went to prepare for the ministry and I had always wanted to go because I was going into religious education. So even after we married, I still

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wanted that training and I was glad I had it as a pastor's wife. Love helped me. I felt like helped you know what he was uh I really enjoyed my similar days. Sure it did. Um who was administration through the years that you were there. We

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had a doctor tv neal who was president but I've probably been my second year. I believe that major Davis came. I'm not sure. Seems like he came out about my sophomore year and he was a wonderful christian and fine layman who gave up more lucrative position

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in order to serve Alabama baptist in this capacity and to serve the Lord. And he really got howard out the kinks. He was having some financial problems and other problems and Major Davis was a real asset to the school and also his wife was white lady

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can she took so much interest in the students. They both did. We felt real close to them and I maintained a friendship with them so long as they live. They only died in recent years and they were always my friend and kept an interested in my

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life and I appreciate that very much. You called him major. Everybody called him major. He had served in the military as a major and so we all called him major. We never called him mr doctor anything. Everybody called him major. Was he young when he came

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or was I don't know how old he would have been at that time. I really no I think he stayed he stayed until dr Roy became president. He appreciated him so well let's see I don't know when dr wright assumed this responsibility. I read that it

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was hard will Davis idea for this campus that we're at now right, there was really no room to expand the campus and some people objected to the fact he wanted to move it all the way across town, but They could not expand where they were. And

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so this was the best thing to do just to start over really. Nothing out there worth repairing. I mean as far as making it modern facility, this was in 1940, it was dilapidated 1957. When he moved out here around, my mother moved with him and she

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graduated 60. Well, I was, I didn't remember right off, but when they moved out here. But oh, they kept the buildings in some state of repair and they would paint it out, paint them white, trying to hide the, you know the bricks and make it look

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better. But as far as a big renovation it was, there were not enough there to work with. So he suggested coming out here and this has been a wonderful place for it to be with plenty of room. And major Davis had a lot to do with

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that move. He just insisted that a new place found for the institution, convince the trustees. I remember when they started developing this area, they were tearing down, cutting down all the trees and distressed me, but my husband explained to me what they to move the heavy

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equipment around. They had to do that. So they just cleared an area, you know, to start the buildings and as you notice they have a brick that is a one that when you add a new building, you don't identify it as being new. It all blends

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together on the campus. And I think that was a nice idea. They built them all are continuing to use that same type of brick and that unifies the appearance of the campus and I'm not sure I start to say that George and I don't know what

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that is. I don't know. But it it makes makes for a beautiful campus. I think I've been on some campuses where one type of brick and another, you know used with the buildings and that makes it kind of choppy and they kept this all with the

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master plan, which is which is excellent. Hardwell Davis was his idea that he had this planned out or I'm not sure who all worked with him on that. You know, the development plans for the campus. I couldn't be sure about that. I know dr wright had

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a lot to do with it too after he came so I couldn't decide. I wouldn't know where the credit really goes, but they all had input and it certainly is a beautiful campus. When did you begin working here down in the library in the library? Well,

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My husband came here in 78. We came here in 78 after he retired from ministry and well, he had been a pastor in Montgomery 28 years. Then we went to Columbia South America with a foreign mission board. And when we came back louis decided he wanted

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to go into another phase of baptist life. And so he came to Sanford as assistant to dr Writing University Relations and we moved on campus and one of the faculty apartments and traveled. He traveled for the university for three years. Then in April of 1981 he

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died of a heart attack and I had not been working on campus pride of that because I traveled with him. And then In the fall of 1981 I started working part time in the library and it has developed into full time opportunity for me. I worked

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for a while in Mr Campbell's office. Mr Campbell was a librarian and then worked in the reserve room for maybe a year, year and a half. And they asked me to take the Learning resources summer he was moving from pharmacy building. Had been over 10 years

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moving to the library and they had a religious education lab which started about three years ago. And Mr had asked me to set that up since I had had religious education training. So I have both of these labs down here, the religious education lab and the

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learning resources. They are out here on this wing, it collection of current materials published by the southern baptist sunday school board, the woman's Missionary Union and the Brotherhood Commission. And they send us all this material without charge is to be used by any of the students

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for whatever religious activities they may have. And it's used quite a bit by the religious education. Those who are majoring in religious education are interested in that field. They use it quite a bit in their class work. And it is also available to churches in this

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area to come in and check out this material or to see what is available. So it has quite a ministry itself and we let students check material whatever length of time they needed for some project they're dealing with. Okay, Getting back to the 1940s and 1941

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was a big year for Howard because it's been 100 years. Can you describe what went on? Well, we had a lot of good activities that year and in particular they had a big pageant. Now we did not have a big auditorium. We had an auditorium in

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old main as it was called. But they used the baptist church for the for this production of the pageant on the history of Howard College and I was not in the pageant but we were all quite interested in in that very dramatic presentation and the students

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were excited, you know, and putting it on. They I'm a baptist church is right across the street from where the name of mel smith. Dawn was the dormitory where the girls were, the door was not on campus. We were about a block and a half from

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the main campus. Um, where would that be on 2nd Avenue South now? Is that what I've forgotten? Is that the address of the school? I guess it was Second Avenue at the time, it was called Underwood Avenue, but I haven't seen an Underwood Avenue. It seems

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like it was on the same street church of course is still and the dome was just just across the street. The pageant took place. Were there many students involved quite a thing. It surely was and of course a lot of the local people and people around

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the state came to see it and people who had graduated or attended Howard College came to to see the pageant people. Oh yes it was. And that year the entre new featured the, the fact that, you know, it was a centennial year. So the pageant, to

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me seems the most outstanding way they celebrated where all the students attended. Um, did they pay or did everybody show up? Oh, I don't think there was any charge for the pageant. I don't remember any, I think it was more or less just good public relations

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thing, you know, and to bring students back to the, to the school for the former students where I lived in that maybe mel smith off, which was, as I said, off the campus and we had just a little walk to the campus. We ate in that

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same building and the dining room was downstairs on the below the ground floor. And the building was sort of like the shape of an age. And as you energy came into the large living room. And then on each side were wings that had suites, the rooms

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were arranged in suites. Each suite had a good sized living room and three bedrooms that were double bedrooms, one bedroom was single. And so that with our suite mates, we had a camaraderie, you know, and it was a lot of fun. We had a lot of

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fun. It was good way to get to know people real well. And so I enjoy my life and we had, there's a religious programs in the dorm, like we had the, and we would have, and we had a counselor dawn counsel to governor students as far

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as sometimes they would have to be disciplined in certain ways if they broke rules, especially like coming in late at night. We had, we had restrictions and that two nights a week we require were required to stay in to study. And so on those nights you

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did have the opportunity of going to the library, which I often did because I could meet lewis at the library and we studied together. And so then you had curfews, you had to be in by certain times, no other nights even. And if you want it

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over the weekend to have a date that would be go somewhere that will take you past the 11 o'clock hour. You have to have permission from the dorm mother. What we call a permission. And you just had those granted. I don't remember now how many times,

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but you couldn't have one any time you wanted to. But you could have late permission occasionally. And we rode streetcars to town. Not many students had cars, very few automobiles. And so when I would go on a date, most of the time we ride to town

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on the street car, go to the movie and or go bowling or whatever. Sometimes we went skating. And so I remember one night when Lewis and I came out of the movie to meet the streetcar and as we walked out we could see it going headed

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toward East Lake. And so I realized I was going to be late getting in. So I went to the telephone and called the dorm mother. She was mrs Hamrick. And we all called a hammy, you know? And she accepted that. Yes, she, she, you know that

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was just the way she wanted to be. We all called and hammy called him and I said I'd like to spend the night tonight with Margaret McClellan, a friend who lived not far from the norm. And so she gave him permission to do that because otherwise

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at the time the next streetcar came along I was going to be late. And so that's how I avoided punishment for being late that night. I spent the night with his friends. So we had a lot of little things like that to happen because we did

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have, you know, special rules about when we come in. Now we had a little room, one little room that was called the date parlor and it just was a small living room. And if you wanted to use it to sit and talk with your date, you

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made reservations, you know, so that you would have it on a particular night. So you made reservations for the date parlor. So you have some place in private to sit and talk. That was another little interesting what I thought, but the dorm life was a lot

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of fun. Oh yes, I used it myself many times because you know, not having a car to go anywhere. And so yes, people would. And also East Lake was not far from the campus and many, I walked many miles around East Lake, we go to the

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lake and walk and walk and talk and they had tennis courts and all of the East Lake area which we used, I believe that what I mean. Howard college? That's something of course. But of course nothing to compare with what we have today. It's like, well

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no, you know, it's so open and change that now. You could hardly, I can't recognize really any landmarks over there today. It's all that neighborhood is built up and changed. Oh but you know the lake was in walking distance of the campus and well we used

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to go walk around the lake. I mean was it still well it was clear enough for walking. It wasn't like it was cleared out around there. But many times on the day we went to East Lake and walked and walked because all that sounds so simple

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to you all today. But for us it was we had a lot of fun. You said that there were I think three bedrooms that had double beds, double occupancy. You had single beds, three double bedrooms and a single bedroom would be around this one large living

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room. Oh so you know your suite mates with people you really were real close to usually it was a senior. I had it my senior year and yeah, he was, you know when I asked for that we had a lot of funny things to happen. I

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remember one time one of the suites, they call themselves the night, our sweet, they decided they were going to change their suite and they took all the beds and put them out there in the living room, big living room and slid all the study tables into

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the little bedrooms and other furniture and have found out something was going on up there. So she came up and she told them they had to have all that in place before daylight before morning, so they were up most of the night trying to get all

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the things back, she didn't want them all, you know, having all the beds out in the living room, but you wouldn't, but you know that was just an idea, they had, they thought that would be a lot of fun, remember another time they had that same

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group, they had christmas party right before christmas holidays and you were to bring something. So I had a little christmas tree and you could walk across the roof because it was just 11 story, go out the window on the second floor and walk across that little

00:25:19.280 - 00:25:32.410

flat roof and go in the window on the other side. So that's what I was proceeding to do that night and I had this christmas tree, I raised the window on the next side and had one ft through the window to step in to take my

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christmas tree to the party and I heard him talking to them and she was putting a stop to that too because I guess it was too late at night to be going on. So I withdrew my foot and went back across the roof with my christmas

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tree and never did make it to the party because she put a stop to it, but they let us have a lot of fun, but you know if it was so late at night they decided in the middle of the, it was so flat you know

00:26:04.610 - 00:26:27.780

danger to walk across. I didn't have any business doing it but there was no danger to you could just step out the window. We did that often scoot across over to the other side. Sounds like you did when you didn't want anybody living and see if

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you like what you would be campus if you had so many demerits and by that you would not get a night out. You know when they say they call it on campus and you have to stay on campus for so many, so many days depending on

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what you have done. If you had if you build up these points, I don't remember what they were but when you built up so many then you have what it was like you'd be campus maybe for the weekend or for a night you could be out

00:27:03.860 - 00:27:20.030

of something, you would not be able to to do that. I don't remember feeling that it was real strict but I know students today would feel that it was very strict but at that time I did not think I didn't interpret it that way. And the

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fact that you had to stay in tonight's study, that made good sense to me. You know I didn't we didn't think about the restrictions and coming in and when I have permission to stay till I don't remember it was 12:30 or 1:00 when you had late

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permission. Oh those things were more or less accepted by the students. We didn't think about it as being so restricted. They would know they would. But if you're trying to get a good education, you need some time to be in to study, keep decent hours. So

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you could feel like, you know, doing the things you were there to do academically. So, so now there's complaining the prince and about late night, well, I couldn't be positive on that. Who felt that they would like to complain about anything and everything. And I'm sure

00:28:20.790 - 00:28:43.390

that went on there too. But I don't remember being a real issue. Not at all, wasn't discussed so much that you felt intimidated by the rules, You know, did the boys have? I'm not sure that I would think that they had some, but I couldn't be

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sure. I just don't, I don't remember. Well, he lived quite a few of them lived off campus in that vicinity. And so he and about five other ministerial students lived in a a basement apartment, I guess you would call it an apartment, had several bedrooms of

00:29:04.340 - 00:29:26.790

the house between the dorm I lived in and the campus. And they call themselves the oh, it was they kept house and had someone to do their cooking. And then my brother lived across the street from the campus and they call themselves a debate of peanut

00:29:26.790 - 00:29:56.140

butter. And that was a group of ministerial students. So I don't really remember the rules about they they I think that Lewis did they called it the alpha gamma chapter of and and you know, they just had a good good time together. Who cooked for Do

00:29:56.140 - 00:30:17.030

they cook? They cook for themselves? They have one of their members, one of those who lived there was a cook I think for Lewis it was a man called Porter Harrison cook for them several years. And I don't remember from my brother, we did the cooking

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for them. A lot of people lived around the campus if they didn't have a limited dorm space, they just like to say that we're not anywhere that they didn't have enough dorms for them to live in. So because there were lots of town students just that

00:30:42.840 - 00:31:06.440

there are today, a lot of people came out on the street car school. They also lived in areas I mean in that area in an apartment, a lady might just rent out her bedroom even if she didn't want them cooking. It's the second side of tape

00:31:06.450 - 00:31:24.360

one we were talking about where the men ate and where the cafeteria was. And you mentioned that there wasn't really any one certain cafeteria. No, I don't recall. I think it was a separate dining rooms, but I can't remember there. We would have to be some

00:31:24.360 - 00:31:43.130

type of snack shop on campus. But I don't I don't I can't remember where that was located. I just don't know about that. Was there a co op building where they could go. I believe we did call the place the coop but I don't I can't

00:31:43.130 - 00:32:14.100

remember. No I don't I did and I don't remember that. Sure I might mention just a little bit about the religious life on campus because that was very important. And the baptist student union was very important on campus during my college days. And well I was

00:32:14.100 - 00:32:35.370

very active participant in Lewis did too. And so did my brothers. I mean it was just an outstanding feature of our college life and we had what we call morning watch every morning, a devotional time on campus there it seems to me that we had an

00:32:35.370 - 00:32:54.910

outdoor amphitheater, small somewhere there that we used in good weather like in the spring or fall. But when there was a small building there on campus we used for Bs you activities and we had more than watching that building most of the time and one of

00:32:54.910 - 00:33:20.640

the students would just leave devotional time for us. And then when we had these religious focus weeks they were well attended by the students and that was an outstanding feature and religious focus. We had speakers to come and speak each day, you know with with a

00:33:20.650 - 00:33:47.410

spiritual emphasis in the week, I think they call it. I don't know, they have still have some sort of spiritual emphasis we killed on campus emphasis week but and then the ministerial association of course has a lot of activities. The Y. W. Y. W. C. A.

00:33:47.410 - 00:34:13.330

And the Y. M. C. A. Had strong groups on campus. See that's not a denominational type thing that would be for all denominations. But it did have service activities that still has participated in. And A P. O. Which is still in existence on campus today was

00:34:13.330 - 00:34:34.520

organized during our school years and Lewis was one of the charter members of A P. O. The last 10 years ago two of the Saffron men who are in A P. O. Today took me out to dinner just to honor his memory as being one of

00:34:34.520 - 00:34:56.400

the founders of the A. P. O. Chapter on stanford campus and I enjoy going with them and I'm glad to know that that organization is still active on campus today. It's a service organization. I don't I don't understand Mark grimes who is a member yesterday. He

00:34:56.400 - 00:35:19.170

might be president in fact, but I don't remember what, I don't know what it stands for. But when your husband was one of the charter members and even dean cox brought two of the members to Montgomery to his memorial service. And I thought that was a

00:35:19.180 - 00:35:46.850

nice tribute paid to him as being a charter member whose idea was. Well it is of course not just a local organization, it is more widespread than here. They just decided to have a chapter on this campus. So I don't know the hard I'm talking about

00:35:46.850 - 00:36:11.720

religious life. Did you all have to go to chapel like we do now. We did have chapel once a week. That I don't remember. I think I would but I don't remember that we did you know we didn't were expected to go but I don't I

00:36:11.730 - 00:36:32.480

don't remember how often it was. Um Today you know chapel attendance is counted. You don't remember it being counted then toward them graduation it must have been but I don't I don't remember. I don't know if we took a card and turned it in as well.

00:36:33.510 - 00:36:58.970

You know some way recorded our tenders. I don't remember that. I'm not sure. What kind of classes did you take? I majored in religious education in english, I have a double major and history. It was important to me too. I took in history and sociology. Uh

00:36:58.980 - 00:37:21.560

Remember speech class was on the top floor of old main and that was the class that had so many holes in the ceiling where the plaster had fought. But we had a delightful teacher, Tony Sparks MS. Parks and she had such a nice personality. We all

00:37:21.570 - 00:37:43.550

thoroughly enjoyed speech classes from her and she directed the plays and things on campus. I never did participate in in Masters of Thespians. Thespians a play. I think it is drama might have been here. I've kind of gotten confused with high school on that. But my

00:37:43.550 - 00:38:04.460

brothers participated in it. But I never did. The massacre seemed to be a big deal on campus. Nothing I might mention is about the high patient, the women's honor society. The tapping service for that was so unique. We gathered out in front of a domain on

00:38:04.460 - 00:38:24.080

the lawn on the campus there and and had just a little bank. And so you could have some people up on that bank bank who were conducting the program and then no one knew who was to be tapped except the members of hype atia and any

00:38:24.080 - 00:38:45.060

advisers. So in the ceremony, they would walk through the student body who gathered there and pinned a small Kasich on the person on the women who were being tapped that day for my patients. And it was very exciting and very something all the students look forward

00:38:45.070 - 00:39:18.990

to and the men's organization was tried. And I don't believe the trident exist today. I don't know. They have, well, we do have an honest group of men and I don't remember. Maybe it's capitalize on campus now. Um, did anybody try to find out who was

00:39:19.000 - 00:39:39.520

being tapped? Well, there's a lot of curiosity about it. And then sort of, you would be out there thinking in your own mind, those you thought would be the women who were tapped. But it was kept pretty secret kept a secret until until that day. So

00:39:39.530 - 00:40:04.050

it was, it was exciting. I think for the entire student body. That's good. Um, about sports. We haven't talked anything about sports was to sports. Howard. Well during that time there was a lot of excitement over the football. Football was a big sport for us and

00:40:04.060 - 00:40:23.670

so much rivalry between Birmingham Southern and Howard. We had a big parade preceding the Birmingham Southern Howard game and I remember one year I had worked, a lot of us have worked on the Bs you float and we worked practically all night for several nights to

00:40:23.670 - 00:40:40.220

get that float ready where we were gathered downtown for the parade and my parents were there with me and louis and I were there with them. So we kept watching the parade and the Bs you float never did appear. And he and I both worked on

00:40:40.220 - 00:40:54.400

it so much and we kept telling our parents will be coming soon. We never did come and we found out that when they were lying the cars up that the wind has whipped up under the float and torn it so badly that we're not in the

00:40:54.400 - 00:41:17.250

parade. But we had a lot of fun with football and always had a big bonfire before that damn Southern game of course, sometimes the people from Sanford would pull pranks over there on Birmingham Southern campus and they would on the Howard campus and somewhere along the

00:41:17.250 - 00:41:34.870

way they discontinued the games between the two schools, but they would put up signs or they would, I don't know just different things. Most I was in fun. But once in a while I suppose things got a little out of hand and they decided to discontinue

00:41:36.230 - 00:42:02.800

um that discontented games while you were there. I'm not, I don't know. I'm not sure that. Oh yes, yes. And I'm not sure when I think that we continue to play college. I know they had discontinued it earlier in the re established that there's something happening

00:42:02.800 - 00:42:29.590

on campus. I know we had a lot of fun. Where was the car at? I think it was on that feel we have an athletic field right behind the campus, that main campus. And I think that's where the bonfire was. Big parade day. We wouldn't have

00:42:29.590 - 00:42:53.590

a big parade. I mean, was it on a special day? Ah well, let's see. It was probably like on the day of that, of the football game. I know that earlier. They used to have the thanksgiving day. That's what they would have. Okay down the middle

00:42:53.590 - 00:43:14.100

of Birmingham. We had it in downtown Birmingham. But what streets? I don't, I don't know. And I'm sure it was not, didn't go over a great area, but they did permit us to use certain streets for the parade. Um I noticed I mentioned that Princeton radio

00:43:14.110 - 00:43:31.260

broadcast the parade. Was it that big of a thing for Birmingham. That that they broadcast. Well, I would think so. See Birmingham has always been proud of these two schools. And that was before the days of U. A. B. And other schools here at Birmingham Southern

00:43:31.260 - 00:43:48.380

and Howard were very important to the cultural life of this city. And they gave good support. Everything they did. They took an interest in what was going on on both campuses surely did. So that wouldn't have been unusual for broadcast parade. I wouldn't think that would

00:43:48.390 - 00:44:17.360

be usually at all supported us. Different things that we did. It seems like now that it's less support. I mean big deal. A lot more colleges, colleges and universities. Um, on December 7, 1941, Pearl Harbor. And I know you didn't graduate until May of that year.

00:44:18.420 - 00:44:45.850

Did it affect the war to affect you at all? Well, it did of course about what would happen to them after graduation. And it did put a lot of thoughts into their minds, I think about their future. But as far as our academic life, it went

00:44:45.850 - 00:45:01.570

on very much the same that semester. They did make changes later and brought a lot of Navy men on campus and for the Navy V 12 program. But that was after I graduated. I'm not somehow, it was called the navy V 12 and they brought young

00:45:01.570 - 00:45:25.090

men of the navy on campus and gave them opportunities for some training and schooling. But I don't, I don't remember exactly. Well not really because he as a minister that was a choice with him. He went on to the seminary and graduated. But during his senior

00:45:25.090 - 00:45:49.340

year at the seminary or his last year seminary, he volunteered for the army chaplaincy and went into the army right out of seminary. But for ministers they did have that choice choice. That's right. He served in the army for several years went to, well he was

00:45:49.340 - 00:46:04.280

sent to the Philippines and during, during the time after he volunteered the war ended and he went out right after I went overseas right after the war had ended. Although it was still, there's still a lot of confusion in the Philippines. Everything had not said they

00:46:04.280 - 00:46:24.160

didn't take anyone with them except the military. He stayed there two years and then he wrote me that he would have an opportunity to go to Tokyo to serve with joe McCarthy to set up a chapel cell in Tokyo. So I joined him in Tokyo and

00:46:24.170 - 00:46:50.130

we lived there two years in the occupation with Macarthur which was during his time there. I mean and that was very unique period in history. The occupation of Japan and we were changed really had a wonderful assignment that we did. We were right in a period

00:46:50.130 - 00:47:16.670

of history and like I said it was quite unique and our first child was born over there. How many Children did you? Right, but you missed him while he was in the army. Those those two years were along I came to Birmingham and served as educational

00:47:16.670 - 00:47:42.600

director of Southside baptist church during the time that Lewis was in the Philippines which gave me an opportunity to stay busy and then I joined him. That's Simon in Japan, right, if you're going to stay two more years, I'm certainly coming. So that didn't hesitate a

00:47:42.610 - 00:48:09.600

minute about that. He was, so he was out of the country for four years, which is a long stretch. I'm howard, I read the Princeton about Sherman, very important landmark on the campus. Just a big shady tree. But a lot of people dating would sit there

00:48:09.600 - 00:48:32.210

and talk and so it was a little special meaning to everybody. I think it seemed like there was a lot of innuendo and printing about it, just saying everybody loves to go out to the Yes, that's true and I don't think it's there. I've been by

00:48:32.210 - 00:48:48.700

that old campus so changed because of the apartments and all that have been built. But I didn't from the autumn. Um well I was just driving but I didn't see it and I may be gone the campus. You know, you said you just, you drove by

00:48:48.700 - 00:49:09.310

it. How far out was? I mean I always thought it was just the buildings are on top of the hill on your right and you're going down the road, you know, I think well you know those buildings are there, they put, they put some apartment buildings,

00:49:11.850 - 00:49:35.780

you can't, you can't identify the campus. I would, you know, I was with someone who was familiar with it. I don't know if I would have identified it. Just the women's dorm is further up the street than the main campus. See that's where they had East

00:49:35.780 - 00:50:14.960

end hospital. Yeah, I heard that. They added a lot to that hospital. Um We're heading back to this right across from that and then several campus was like a block over Howard's campus, about a block and a half down the street busy south I guess south

00:50:14.960 - 00:50:36.450

of it at that time. Was Howard in it was in Birmingham city limits. Well I would assume so. But was it was it all built up like that with all the houses around it? Well yes, pretty much those houses have been there a long time and

00:50:38.110 - 00:50:57.190

you know between the dorm and campus there were houses on both sides of the street. I don't like the, the apartment buildings built just like I said, I believe I could almost be certain they took down every building that was there. Not that I never have

00:50:57.200 - 00:51:14.790

gone out there to really see but I would think that they took down everything just started over but they wanted to put you know on that spot. I can't visualize anything that was there being well we're worth saving as far as the physical part of it

00:51:14.790 - 00:51:37.410

was concerned? Um What was, Well this was a little bit earlier, but was there anything called Howard College Estates? Was that a nickname or do you know anything about that? I don't know what that would be unless that, I don't know that name coming after the

00:51:37.410 - 00:51:58.010

school had moved. And they just named something out there that I don't know the sorority house. Now we did have sorority houses, they're on campus, they were right on the campus And I would think they were like there were three or 4 and no one lived

00:51:58.010 - 00:52:19.450

in them, but there was a place for them to meet. Then the man had fraternity houses, but they sort of an area kind of adjoining the main campus to live in the fraternity houses. I don't much think so, but I couldn't be sure that I don't

00:52:19.450 - 00:52:40.710

remember that. No, I was not, mother had been an 85 judson and she was real anxious for me to join a sorority, but I was involved in so many campus activities. Well of course I was a freshman. I was not, but I began to be and

00:52:40.710 - 00:52:57.190

the school was small, the student body was small and so I kept telling my mother that I did not want to limit myself to a small group and I had a lot of friends who were in sororities, but I never did join. I just became involved

00:52:57.190 - 00:53:21.880

in a lot of lot of campus and various things, so I just never did. And I just, I don't know. I just never did, never did feel a need for it. Were there any women's sports that was jumping around a little bit we're doing women's sports.

00:53:22.570 - 00:53:48.720

Yes, I can't give you any information on that because I just don't really remember that that well. Oh evidently I didn't I didn't participate in anything, I can't remember anything about that. Did you participate in? I think it was called H day. Yeah we had each

00:53:48.720 - 00:54:15.350

day. That was a big big thing and everyone participate or is it more just a sorority? Well you know different groups could could participate. I don't know how, I don't know, I don't remember how many you would say how widespread that participation was. It just seemed

00:54:15.350 - 00:54:36.490

like that was just the thing in joe. I didn't yeah he said the spirit of the campus that your brother had gone to. Howard you could figure out why he wanted to go but that the spirit of the campus and the spirit of faculties what made

00:54:36.490 - 00:54:54.610

you want to go. He described how he would come home, you know just telling of his life there and he was he just enjoyed his years so much and I just kind of caught it. I did consider going to Baylor and then and he was investigated,

00:54:54.620 - 00:55:11.630

you know going out and then I thought I believe I just go to Howard at the time. Two of us has been, the third one came and then the fourth one so we all went, it was just, it was such a wonderful spirit on campus. And

00:55:11.640 - 00:55:36.320

as I mentioned earlier about the close contact with the professors meant a lot with some outstanding men there, Dean Burns in english. He has shaped his classes on Shakespeare were just super and dr chapman was such a gentleman, a southern gentleman and scholar and he taught

00:55:36.320 - 00:55:59.900

in the religion department. We all loved him and then Dean Dale in history, Dean Dale had a winsome personality. He was confined to a wheelchair because he had had polio earlier. But he greatly endeared himself to the students and new, you know, he knew us and

00:55:59.900 - 00:56:20.510

we knew him and that was true of all the most of all the professors had a close relationship with um oh you said you went to school. I mean when we were talking earlier before I started this interview said he went to school that many of

00:56:20.510 - 00:56:49.170

the faculty there at Sanford today classmates. Right, Well I remember Karl Worley who doctor, he went to Nigeria for many years, but he has taught the past few years at Sanford and retired last Yeah. Oh and dr David vess was a classmate who is now here

00:56:49.170 - 00:57:14.010

in history and maybe who is a doctor in the religion department. He was younger than I. But as we were in school at the same time and also we knew one another seminary. He and his wife had an apartment enjoying hours at seminary. So we've been

00:57:14.010 - 00:57:32.440

good friends over the years. Oh, so it's been good when we came back up here. Lewis said we get to renew our friendship with some of the people been in school with and that's been one of the side benefits of being back up here. It's amazing

00:57:32.440 - 00:58:02.590

how many Howard graduate threats. George Jackson, dr Jackson was was that when we were there and new Neil, shepherd O'neill is younger than I am and I knew him too. And there were quite a few some on campus now. Oh yes, an hour gone over that

00:58:02.590 - 00:58:34.420

education. I think he was in school when I was so was he really instill he's wild. I don't I don't, I'm not with him now to know what he's like now, but he was in school at the same time trying to think of who else it's

00:58:34.430 - 00:58:56.590

been nice to, to be with them again up here. Sure has been um if if you were looking back and your days at Howard, what would be the most, the thing that stands out the most four years you were there? Well, I'd have to put the

00:58:56.600 - 00:59:17.540

top of the list, you know, meeting my husband that would have to be at the top because he meant so much to me and my life has been so good. But I think the oh spirit of the school, just super, it's hard to put into words

00:59:17.540 - 00:59:38.140

because we knew one another so well it was just a happy close feeling that we had as a student body, there was a lot of enthusiasm over anything we did. Everybody just pitched in more or less to make a success or trying to make a success

00:59:38.140 - 01:00:01.170

of the difference, things that we had and everything was really supported by the student body and she was and the fact that we just really were a team ah I remember one time making the remark to louis, I said I enjoyed my school day so much

01:00:01.180 - 01:00:21.530

I could just live them all over again. He said speak for yourself, He enjoyed his schooling, but he wasn't too interested in repeating the school. But uh, it wasn't that he didn't like his school days, but I, I really did enjoy your family, your family real

01:00:21.530 - 01:00:46.930

supportive. Yes, indeed they were. Yeah, Father, like I say sent four of us to school and I didn't have a job to go through school. I didn't have a, well at one point in time I took and I took it took up the dry cleaning in

01:00:46.930 - 01:01:03.280

the door, a little bit of spending money, you know, picked it all up for the dry cleaning, but I didn't have a job with the school and at that time I didn't have a bank account either just to write a check Because money wasn't that free.

01:01:03.290 - 01:01:16.670

But my mother when she would write a letter would put sometimes just a $5 bill in there or maybe a rare occasion that would be a $10 bill which gave me a little extra to spend on. But I know that as my younger brothers came onto

01:01:16.670 - 01:01:34.160

school, I noticed that they had a bank account, could write checks, but my older brother and I didn't have that opportunity. We were LTD and spending in that just like I said, it came through the mail. It's usually a little extra spending money, but I didn't

01:01:34.170 - 01:01:55.960

really suffer. Daddy did afford us on education, which I very grateful for that. Did you go home in the summer? Yes, I did. I went home and I did, it was not called some emissions as we have it today because this was in the early days

01:01:55.960 - 01:02:35.320

of that type thing where students went out into funny No one was there to take care of. I ended up staying with her. But sometimes I have a vacation bible school in the daytime they teach the sunday school teachers at night. You do double

01:02:35.320 - 01:02:50.660

duty during that week when you were out there. Yeah. And I remember Lewis talking about one time when he was out working with vacation bible school. Somebody hitched up a meal every morning to a wagon. He belong to the church. He grew up in a little

01:02:50.660 - 01:03:07.500

city, he was in government of that country, like that little wagon to the church and on the way he stopped and houses and pick up Children and fill up the wagon with Children, take them onto the church and have vacation bible school with a mule. That's

01:03:07.500 - 01:03:25.570

right mule and wagon got that going. Sounds like y'all enjoyed it. Did you ever get to see him in the summer? Well, my mother said he thought all roads to anywhere lead through Talladega. So whenever he would go in the direction he would come by Talladega.

01:03:25.860 - 01:03:43.750

So once I was out in Shelby County in a place called Mastella's tiny little place. And even when I got off the road train to get out there and I got off the train, I did not see a house or anybody to meet me. Not anything.

01:03:43.750 - 01:03:56.650

I got off of that suitcase day and I had to walk with that suitcase for the longest several miles I'd walk and sit and walk and sit until I got to the house of a lady who was a member of that church to find out what

01:03:56.660 - 01:04:10.730

to do with me. But anyway, Lewis was working in the same county and he came over there to see me once during that week and he says I hate to go off and leave you in this forsaken place. Said, I'm afraid you just stay over here

01:04:10.730 - 01:04:23.490

all week. Such a lonely place. I said, no, this is where I've been assigned and this is where I'm going to stay. But I would see him And then when I was working at one of Tosca last summer he came out that hit hitchhike, that's the

01:04:23.490 - 01:04:39.480

way people, boys didn't have cause my brother's hitchhike back and forth to school. It was not dangerous at that time. Everybody would help you out. Was he checked out too at this highway, you know, to get to camp when came out there when I was working

01:04:39.480 - 01:04:58.310

out there. So I saw him during the summer when you went to the rural churches, you know, you just go out there. Were you in charge of everything? That's right. You were, you were it and you were supposed to know what's what you know? So you

01:04:58.310 - 01:05:17.390

know what I knew best I could, they didn't, they didn't train us like they do nowadays. But we brought our books and supplies with us and trying to help the sunday school teachers are in vacation bible school work embarrassed things like that. You were just it.

01:05:17.710 - 01:05:42.480

And also we had youth revival. We'd go out as a team and have, oh, youth revival. I remember being on team one time, that Dr he went down to, he preached him and somebody led to sing and I can't remember who was in that group. You

01:05:42.480 - 01:05:57.970

saw the recreation something with, just went down there to take care of everything in the youth revival. You knew a little bit more about what you're gonna do because the church invited youth team. The church's invited these others too. But they didn't really play and how

01:05:57.970 - 01:06:19.340

they were going to take care of you when they had some good times. One place I went, they just had electric lights put in the building, use these all the lambs kerosene and so we had a good attendance because the people came since the church had

01:06:19.340 - 01:06:33.820

just gotten electricity and then the strings were hanging down and then walk around turning on lights on and off before we get class started that night. Everybody just checking them out. That was, that was really funny. But I was assured of good attendance because they come

01:06:33.820 - 01:07:04.630

and coming back to see those new lights in the church. Did Howard have lines, it was not that backward, but rural areas then sometimes they did not have electricity, still running water. Oh, some most of the places here, most of the places um, do you think

01:07:04.630 - 01:07:30.360

Howard has, I know you seems like contributed to where you are today and what your life has been like? I think so because I have felt a definite growth spiritually during my years there and intellectually and I felt real challenge from the men and women. I

01:07:30.360 - 01:07:52.000

came to know who were the faculty members, they made a definite impact on my life and and their interest, continuing interest in the gave me a lot of encouragement. I really did. I know once lewis and I were puzzling over a decision. He had been asked

01:07:52.010 - 01:08:06.480

to go to work with the home mission board during that time he was a pastor and we came up and talked with major Davis and we had, you know, it's been years since we had graduated but we felt him as a friend. Such a friend that

01:08:07.800 - 01:08:29.330

we could go and confide in him and seek his advice. That's how close that relationship was. And then I remember when we, when I went to Japan to join Lewis and then our son was born dr chapman from the religion department wrote to us at that

01:08:29.330 - 01:08:44.340

time. So you know, he maintained an interest in us. I suppose today the student body is so large. I'm sure they are continuing interest. There is a continuing interest in students but I don't know if they can keep it up to the extent that that we

01:08:44.340 - 01:09:00.990

felt it back then. Thank you for that. But they seem to try. Oh I know they do. And I'm not I'm not critical of what's going on today because I know from my association with these faculty women, I know that they are interested in the students

01:09:01.010 - 01:09:31.660

even today. But I just mentioned it was a strong feature for me also in my college days. Is there anything else you would like to add before? We have close interview. See I don't know who touched everything that that mm hmm mentioned. I remember you. I

01:09:31.660 - 01:09:41.540

think most everything I jotted down to was also covered it. That's a wrap that they call it. Thank you